woodjer
Caddy
Posts: 72 
TGCT Name: Jeremy Wood
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Post by woodjer on Apr 29, 2015 15:12:58 GMT -5
Admins, feel free to combine this thread with similar ones if you find it easier. I'm coming in from the discussion in the spoiler thread of this week's tournament (Insperity Invitational). It seems to me that there is room to tweak the placement/promotion system so I thought I'd offer a couple suggestions in case it provides any new insight on your current thoughts/discussions...
1) Q-School
Q-School is great and the current courses require superior skill to play well. However, when people move on from there, the Champions/Web courses become MUCH easier and that might be leading to the quick progression we're seeing on the lower levels. Perhaps there could be two (or more) levels of Q-School to help place people into the appropriate ranks. The first one could be a combination of Pro and Web courses and the results there place people into the second Q-School which would either include Pro courses ("championship") or Champs courses ("consolation"). Combine the results of the two schools to better gauge a players skill. So, if people struggle with the first school, they can still make a Web flight by playing well on the consolation courses. Or maybe someone has some great rounds in the first one...they could still belong in maybe Web A if they struggle on the championship courses. Of course, this would require more work from the AMAZING volunteer admins but it may lead to less movement in the first few weeks after placement. If it helps to speed things up, I don't think dropping it to 4 courses in each level would hurt anything.
2) Promotion
I think another REALLY simple way of "forcing" people to move up to their appropriate level would be to adjust the win requirements. For example, a single win on Champs B forces you up to Champs A; two wins in Champs B forces you up to Web C; etc. This would likely require less work from the admin side and could even be adjusted to take Top 3/Top 5/whatever finishes into account, too. However, a quick fix isn't always the best and I'd have to consider how that might work in the long run before fully backing my own suggestion on this one.
Of course, a combination of the two is always possible as well. I know that Admins have put a LOT of their own time into this site and the tours so this isn't at all saying that there is a failure somewhere. I have read quite a bit of the frustrations in the thread I mentioned and wanted to try to do some constructive to address them. Use the ideas or don't...just thought I'd throw out some potential solutions.
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Post by Tim on Apr 29, 2015 15:17:38 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments... we are having a detailed internal discussion on how to improve this. Thanks!
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Post by Pubknight on Apr 30, 2015 13:15:54 GMT -5
As a former Champions/Web tour player I've always felt that any win should bring with it an automatic bump to the next level up, up to say Web A.
I've always felt that if you can finish near the top on one level, you can compete on the next.
I would actually go further and use a Fibonacci sequence:
1 1st or 2nd
1 top 3
2 top 5
3 top 10
5 top 20 finishes automatically moves you up.
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woodjer
Caddy
Posts: 72
TGCT Name: Jeremy Wood
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Post by woodjer on Apr 30, 2015 16:02:42 GMT -5
As a former Champions/Web tour player I've always felt that any win should bring with it an automatic bump to the next level up, up to say Web A. I've always felt that if you can finish near the top on one level, you can compete on the next. I would actually go further and use a Fibonacci sequence: 1 1st or 2nd 1 top 3 2 top 5 3 top 10 5 top 20 finishes automatically moves you up. I like that idea better than my increasing wins one. Use that for automatic promotions and then still have the whole exemptions idea too. I guess the downside is that you go back to having more movement but it's getting people into the appropriate levels for competition's sake. Seems like it would eventually level things out a bit more. If the goal is balanced numbers between tours/flights, I suppose you'd need to work in some sort of demotion system, too. Each week, you'd have a guaranteed 6 people moving up (top 3 plus the 3 exemption players). Depending on the influx of new players, it might not be that big of an issue but I guess you could demote some of the low finishers...maybe use a monthly/quarterly average or WGR? |
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Post by Doyley on May 1, 2015 0:55:04 GMT -5
Announcement coming shortly on some tweaks that will better balance the tours. Will send out an email in the morning
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Post by mcbogga on May 1, 2015 2:44:52 GMT -5
Not a fan of the demotion idea or too easy promotions. Just not in line with how golf tours work.
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sfrench67
Caddy
Posts: 61
TGCT Name: Stuart French
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Post by sfrench67 on May 1, 2015 3:18:56 GMT -5
In comparison, the current scores on the three Web tours the leaders are within a couple of shots of each other but between the Champ tours there is 17 shots. Maybe progression from the Champ A tour to the Web tours need to be easier as there seems to be some very good players in the Champ A that should be on a Web tour.
I am in the Champ A and to be honest I don't really care where I finish, I just love the competition. This is only my second tournament and I am already on the improve. Some people (like Clay maybe) will improve faster than others and maybe they need the opportunity to advance quicker. Consistent score of 12 under per round probably means he (and others) need a greater challenge than the courses provide on the Champs tours.
For me they are great
Cheers Stu
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Post by anquila1978 on May 1, 2015 3:24:29 GMT -5
Not a fan of the demotion idea or too easy promotions. Just not in line with how golf tours work. I see this point, I know it's a lot of work but with the amount of players in the TGCTours as a whole (>1000), more divisions of players maybe a way to equalise the scoring levels. The team is doing an admiral job up against what I think has been an overwhelming participation level. I have a couple of ideas but don't want to step on anyones toes. |
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Post by mcbogga on May 1, 2015 6:01:35 GMT -5
Aquila - can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.
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Post by anquila1978 on May 1, 2015 6:32:28 GMT -5
Aquila - can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. Yeah, but I am loathed to split the members over an idea of someone outwith the team that put the site together, I but have no evidence that my suggestion would actually be better nor that the team need another oar in the boat with this part of the organisation. If we all had the time, resouce and determination these guys have then there would be a few similar site to this, there isn't and therefore letting the team get on with their vision is best, if it is required for a bigger team to help out then I am sure that the team will ask. The limitations some perhaps feel with the tour can come from the fact these guys are stretched at times with the amount of work to be done (persumption here from some other posts), and the also they put up with negativity, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the possible (in this case) |
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Post by mcbogga on May 1, 2015 9:51:20 GMT -5
Maybe send it in a PM then. I am sure they are happy to get the feedback. That does not mean that it's going to happen, of course. Also agree there is no room for negativity. Have not seen any better alternatives around... Quite frankly it is amazing how professionally TGCT looks and feels. I think that is where the negativity stems from - sometimes its easy to forget that this is absolutely free, because it looks and feels like something you would happily pay for....
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woodjer
Caddy
Posts: 72
TGCT Name: Jeremy Wood
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Post by woodjer on May 1, 2015 10:33:34 GMT -5
Not a fan of the demotion idea or too easy promotions. Just not in line with how golf tours work. I understand that it's not how golf tours work. The only reason I suggested demotions was because there has been mention of keeping the flights fairly even in terms of the number of people. I don't think any of the promotion ideas suggested would be "too easy" either. Finishing in the Top 25 is tough enough so actually winning a tournament makes sense to push someone up. Also, in real golf, the bigger money motivates players to challenge themselves on the tougher tours. Since there is no such thing here, people that just like winning every tourney have no motivation to play tougher courses against better players. It's kinda like if Tiger just stayed on the Web tour and dominated every tourney. Eventually, people would start dropping from the tour because they'd realize a win wasn't going to happen. Bottom line is that people make these suggestions so they can play at the right level against similar competition. |
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woodjer
Caddy
Posts: 72
TGCT Name: Jeremy Wood
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Post by woodjer on May 1, 2015 10:37:08 GMT -5
Aquila - can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. Yeah, but I am loathed to split the members over an idea of someone outwith the team that put the site together, I but have no evidence that my suggestion would actually be better nor that the team need another oar in the boat with this part of the organisation. If we all had the time, resouce and determination these guys have then there would be a few similar site to this, there isn't and therefore letting the team get on with their vision is best, if it is required for a bigger team to help out then I am sure that the team will ask. The limitations some perhaps feel with the tour can come from the fact these guys are stretched at times with the amount of work to be done (persumption here from some other posts), and the also they put up with negativity, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the possible (in this case) Hey, this "Suggestion Box" forum is here for a reason. If they don't want to listen, they don't have to but I don't think it would exist if they weren't open to feedback. I mean, Tim and Doyley have both responded to let us know that discussions are underway. Maybe I'm not reading through their lines well enough to understand that they don't want this discussion to continue but, in my experience, they're good guys that are willing to look at things from multiple angles. |
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Post by anquila1978 on May 1, 2015 11:34:51 GMT -5
Yeah, but I am loathed to split the members over an idea of someone outwith the team that put the site together, I but have no evidence that my suggestion would actually be better nor that the team need another oar in the boat with this part of the organisation. If we all had the time, resouce and determination these guys have then there would be a few similar site to this, there isn't and therefore letting the team get on with their vision is best, if it is required for a bigger team to help out then I am sure that the team will ask. The limitations some perhaps feel with the tour can come from the fact these guys are stretched at times with the amount of work to be done (persumption here from some other posts), and the also they put up with negativity, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the possible (in this case) Hey, this "Suggestion Box" forum is here for a reason. If they don't want to listen, they don't have to but I don't think it would exist if they weren't open to feedback. I mean, Tim and Doyley have both responded to let us know that discussions are underway. Maybe I'm not reading through their lines well enough to understand that they don't want this discussion to continue but, in my experience, they're good guys that are willing to look at things from multiple angles. In no way what I am writing is there critism of the team in the use of suggestions, the subject at hand may require a shift in the philosphy of the tour that's all and they guys have now said there will be a mail today about some changes, i would like the current system to work but I do know people in separate levels that just don't feel like they will compete in any manner. -7 for three rounds to be top 20 and -38 leader in the champons A is unfortunately discouraging the other guys in those tours. I am absolutly certain the guys are working to even out the levels, very interested in the changes to come. |
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vesiah
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 83
TGCT Name: champ b
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Post by vesiah on May 1, 2015 12:15:04 GMT -5
my problem with all this is im on the lowest level best finish was 3rd or 4th sure ive had two at that level or three but im just competing not winning why should i be forced up to a tour where i would no longer have any chance at winning my best score in 5 events is 65 ive just had some consistency here and there. if i were to go up a tour id go into each event knowing i coulnt even compete whats the fun in that?
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