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Post by turkmcgill on Apr 14, 2021 2:49:12 GMT -5
There is obviously not a "correct" answer to this question, but I'm curious to hear how you create your courses. Do you basically finish and perfect a hole before moving on to the next one? Or do you work on a single aspect of a hole (like bunker contouring) and then move on and do the same thing for each hole on your course?
With my first course I added trees and did a lot of planting early on. Unfortunately, the bigger trees made my later work on and around the greens a little difficult. (Because they were getting in the way, visually.) So for my second course I decided to make my holes look pretty after I was finished with everything else -- but I'm finding that less enjoyable. When I finish a hole that looks great and plays well, it motivates me to keep going -- but I spent four hours last night just contouring my fairways and adding bunkers. A bit boring, to be honest.
When I'm working on a fairway and the course adds a tree in a really obnoxious spot, I usually take it out. Unfortunately, as I make changes to a hole I often wind up with all these bright yellow brushes in my fairways and on my greens, where they are no longer needed. In the future I may save the cleanup tasks until the end.
Anyway, I'm curious to hear how you create your courses!
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Post by Q on Apr 14, 2021 3:41:12 GMT -5
I like to make a "proof of concept" hole to fits a general strategy (planting choices, course theme, textures, bunker styles). This hole rarely makes it into the actual course. I then focus on the plot, pick out good greensites, then usually plan out and do all the surfaces and macro-sculpting for the whole course, I then plant everything, then all the micro-sculpting, then usually nitpick and redo entire holes/concepts until I like the end result with the last step taking more time then all the other steps combined.
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Post by b101 on Apr 14, 2021 3:53:33 GMT -5
I know a number of great designers save planting to the end due to speed of designing (particularly on console) - I can't do that as so often I work off the planting or need it to fully visualise the environment. 1) Research the type of course and create a plot 2) The big one, IMO, that you cannot do enough. Spend 3-4 sessions on routing and scrutinising the plot. Making sure you have big picture variety (i.e. lengths of holes, directions, greensites, elevation, par, doglegs, difficulty etc) and that you are allowing the right amount of spacing between holes to allow you to create big vistas is crucial. Before I start making holes, I need to fully understand how they interact, where environments change, make certain I'm not repeating the same hole idea etc. I probably go through 2 or 3 big routings firstly and then spend a day tweaking the routing to make it work. A LOT of time just thinking. 3) Leap into the most crucial hole. Sometimes this is hole one, sometimes it might be working from the tightest area of the plot. 4) Go roughly hole by hole but often depends on what I feel like designing - some days you feel like the grind of a par five away from the sun, sometimes you only have enough for that glamour shot par three 5) Get each hole to about 90% or so completion. 6) Playtest a run of holes every once in a while - about 4 holes in a row minimum. If you play just one hole on a loop, you lose the flow. 7) Lots of playtesting and detail planting near the end. Redo things that I don't like - usually means ripping up a couple of holes and areas of planting from when I first started - I get better as I go.
Or, the short, video version: tgctours.proboards.com/post/648115/thread
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Post by richnufc99 on Apr 14, 2021 4:25:49 GMT -5
I think one of the biggest lessons to learn around process is around interdependency of tasks. Unsurprisingly this is a good basic project management lesson too. It basically means that tasks can either happen sequentially or in parallel. For sequential tasks the order may or may not be important. The main reason for this is to avoid as much rework as possible.
If, for example, you completely build one hole and plant it etc, then discover, when you try and route the next few holes, it would have been better in a slightly different direction, well you have a lot of rework. It particularly matters if you are burying planting and elevation changes. Getting the macro landscape sorted for the whole plot or at least the main holes makes sense. You don’t want to get to 18 and realise you’ve got a 150 foot drop from the tee to the clubhouse area.. if you get your levels basically how you want them then you’re fine to start some planting. But like I say if you’ve buried some plants and you need to raise some land by 30 feet, you’re going to have to redo that planting... this sequencing comes with trial and error..
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Post by Q on Apr 14, 2021 5:07:43 GMT -5
I know a number of great designers save planting to the end due to speed of designing (particularly on console) - I can't do that as so often I work off the planting or need it to fully visualise the environment. 1) Research the type of course and create a plot 2) The big one, IMO, that you cannot do enough. Spend 3-4 sessions on routing and scrutinising the plot. Making sure you have big picture variety (i.e. lengths of holes, directions, greensites, elevation, par, doglegs, difficulty etc) and that you are allowing the right amount of spacing between holes to allow you to create big vistas is crucial. Before I start making holes, I need to fully understand how they interact, where environments change, make certain I'm not repeating the same hole idea etc. I probably go through 2 or 3 big routings firstly and then spend a day tweaking the routing to make it work. A LOT of time just thinking. 3) Leap into the most crucial hole. Sometimes this is hole one, sometimes it might be working from the tightest area of the plot. for 2) I have such hard time visualizing a finished hole in a full 18 routing when scrutinizing a plot. For my first course I didnt even bother routing at all until I hit hole 15, I just casually deleted full holes regardless of how good they were until it routed home and just focused on every hole going a different direction from the last (I still consider it a surprisingly well routed course). For Asylum I had 12 holes finished in no particular order and conceptualized the filler holes keeping the order of the original 12 fluid. I didnt even decide where the 1st/18th hole was, for a while 18 was hole 1 and 17 was hole 18. probably my worst routing though. Japan WIP was fully routed and rerouted from the start repeatedly as I nailed down the plot. The reason it didnt make the cut for WCOD was because this ended up taking me so much more time, I ended up blowing up so many more holes on the plot then I ever have in the past. Essentially it felt like it limited my wiggle room to just screw around with some ideas and make some truly fantastic holes. Current version is on hiatis till I can figure out how to fix it. Te Amo I went back to square one and designed with no care at all, similar to my first course, just greensites and routing cool holes without a care to cohesiveness or directions. I then once again ended up with around 13 holes and then rerouted which was which (hole 1 became 10, Hole 2 became 18, hole 3 became 1, hole 4 became 17, hole 5 became 11), I just designed enough tee boxes facing towards enough greens that the course could be easily rerouted in multiple ways and chose the best one. There was only one consistent thing across all my courses and that was your second point (3), I always designed my favorite greensites FIRST. Hole 1 on Bohemian Hole 17 on Asylum Hole 17 on Te Amo First hole designed. Then usually Hole 1 or 18 right after.
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Post by HoneyBadgerHacker on Apr 16, 2021 11:26:17 GMT -5
Yeah pretty sure everyone does it differently. For me, if I’m going to make a plot from scratch I want to spend some good time on it first. Even if you are using a auto generated one it’s a good idea to get an idea where you want to layout your course.
Once I start my first hole I don’t do too much planting at first. I like to design the shapes of the greens, tees, and fairways first on the first 3 holes. I don’t route any other holes until I get to 5 or so if I know I am going to have 9 come back in to the clubhouse. So I pretty much work 2 holes at a time going back and forth between them especially when planting. I have a bad habit of this but once you figure out what kind of style you are doing stick with it (planting/bunker shapes) because it sucks to go back and redo it all later. Currently doing that on my Japan course with the bunkers but the look I’m doing now looks a ton better.
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Post by rjwils30 on Apr 16, 2021 22:58:10 GMT -5
1. Much of what Ben says about routing. Try to get something very balanced without awkward holes. Sometimes it means losing good holes. 2. Messy fairway and bunker exploration. Just play around with what feels right on the ground. Sometimes it doesn’t equate to strategy but try and work with the ground as best you can without imposing too much on it. 3. Test planting. Just go and plant the sh%$ out of the course to establish the view corridors and sight lines. (Steps 1-3 can take about 2-3 days for me) 4. Rip up holes and rework. Note no sculpting yet. 5. Once routing is good. Focussed hole design and sculpting 6. Spend 5 months messing around trying to get the holes to work and get the planting right. 7. One day feel like the course is ready to publish. 8. Realize after all this time there are still stupid things on the course you wished you had noticed over the last 5 months.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Apr 17, 2021 7:39:36 GMT -5
Mostly haphazard here - my management career has been attention to details, so I like to escape that in my gaming, tbh. I'm sure it shows in my output (neither 'work' or 'finished product' felt right).
Plotscaping first, making major features or coastline. Make 18 centerlines for my hole 'flow' - long, short, dogleg - all off to one side of the plot Decide on clubhouse site Drag holes into appx place, doing first 4 on a side, then backwards from 9/18 respectively til they meet well enough
From there, any aspect may catch my eye as 'next thing to do'. But on a hole, green goes first.
At some point, between 'successful' test rounds, meter fill rate & familiarity breeding contempt, it's 'done'
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Post by Violinguy69 on Apr 17, 2021 16:11:04 GMT -5
Depending on the type of course I want to build I'll either raise and flatten the entire plot, or work with the elevation I start with (best for mountain courses with terrain at 100). If I put the terrain way up, I usually to around and "prepare" the land before routing. Then: 1. I route the entire golf course. If I start with big hills, I'll work the holes into the terrain. If not, I just create each hole in a balanced and interesting way. For every two difficult holes (long par 4 or par 3), I put at least one 380-yard par-4. Sometimes I will put a stretch of tough holes followed by a couple of benign ones. It all depends. I do this step first to get a good balanced routing done. I might do this 2 or 3 times, and I ALWAYS have to move holes around when I'm done. At this point, I also decide where I want water and place it. 2. I'll build one hole in the middle of the course, usually #7 or #11 or something like that. I don't want the first hole to be the first one I build in case I discover some trend I want to follow later. Then I go back and start with the first hole and do all the sculpting, bunkers, hole locations, and any specific planting I want around that hole (if any). 3. Plant, plant, and more planting. At this point, I might turn up the trees to max or less. I start around the holes in areas that players will see regularly, then work out from there. I usually build the clubhouse and parking lots, etc. before the end. Sometimes I do that first (my Saudi Arabia course for example which I did before routing the holes). 4. Even though I playtest as I go during step 2, I play the entire course outside of the designer (no mulligans that way) several times from at least the back two tee sets. Different conditions for greens, wind, and firmness. I even play the course on different weather settings to see how it looks. You CANNOT playtest your course enough. I guarantee that once you publish, you'll play your course and find a floating tree or a bad pin. My favorite part is building the holes. It takes a while, but I love making green sites and bunkers. I absolutely hate planting. I enjoy the real detail planting like around holes or little garden or flower areas, but filling the golf course with trees is a chore when you want it to look right. Planting takes about as long as the other steps combined.
One last thing: I build two courses exactly the same way. I do my basic steps, but sometimes I do more planting while building holes, or lengthen/shorten holes when I don't like the routing while I'm building holes. You have to go in with a plan, but you also need the flexibility to make major changes if things aren't working.
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Post by orioles0615 on Apr 20, 2021 9:19:25 GMT -5
1. Much of what Ben says about routing. Try to get something very balanced without awkward holes. Sometimes it means losing good holes. 2. Messy fairway and bunker exploration. Just play around with what feels right on the ground. Sometimes it doesn’t equate to strategy but try and work with the ground as best you can without imposing too much on it. 3. Test planting. Just go and plant the sh%$ out of the course to establish the view corridors and sight lines. (Steps 1-3 can take about 2-3 days for me) 4. Rip up holes and rework. Note no sculpting yet. 5. Once routing is good. Focussed hole design and sculpting 6. Spend 5 months messing around trying to get the holes to work and get the planting right. 7. One day feel like the course is ready to publish. 8. Realize after all this time there are still stupid things on the course you wished you had noticed over the last 5 months. I will add step 5a. Get burnt out after 9 holes and want to try a different theme, so you start a new course
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