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Post by tpetro on Apr 3, 2021 10:13:03 GMT -5
Nothing worse than the final hole of a tournament being a grind to make par - it's the least interesting viewing/playing, particularly in game. Give me Chambers' Bay 18th and the drama that comes with that any day. Chambers Bay is an awful example because it's designed to play as a difficult par 4 for championship golf. Jordan Speith complained about the hole because it was too difficult. The USGA changed the hole to a par 5 on Sunday and he ended up winning the U.S. Open because of it. If one of the best tour players is complaining about the hole's difficulty then it's a pretty difficult golf hole which means it's a pretty good golf hole in my opinion. A difficult challenging par 4 makes you play great golf til the final stroke. Well... Jordan made a 4, DJ made a 5. Par what?
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Post by b101 on Apr 3, 2021 10:18:43 GMT -5
Nothing worse than the final hole of a tournament being a grind to make par - it's the least interesting viewing/playing, particularly in game. Give me Chambers' Bay 18th and the drama that comes with that any day. This is an interesting comment... Just about all of the top tier American championship style courses have a difficult finishing hole. Winged Foot, Merion, Southern Hills, Augusta National, others listed already, the list can go on here. From a player's perspective this is the last type of hole you want to play to win a tournament. On the 18th tee with the leader Up 1, Down 1, Even or Up 2, it keeps it interesting to the final putt. A cake walk par 5 is expected to make par or better. Who wants to see somebody lose a major on a three putt par? Chambers Bay is an awful example because it's designed to play as a difficult par 4 for championship golf. Jordan Speith complained about the hole because it was too difficult. The USGA changed the hole to a par 5 on Sunday and he ended up winning the U.S. Open because of it. If one of the best tour players is complaining about the hole's difficulty then it's a pretty difficult golf hole which means it's a pretty good golf hole in my opinion. A difficult challenging par 4 makes you play great golf til the final stroke. I do agree with mvpmanatee and tpetro that the course's finishing hole should reflect it's overall strategy and feel. And I think a great golf course should be difficult that makes you think on every shot. I know a lot of people prefer the wide open easy to hit fairways with fairly level approach shots, not me. I like the old school architecture, I like a golf course to be challenging. Hmm, first point, saying 'a lot of courses do' doesn't make it right and you're picking your examples from a lot of penal golf courses, which I guess reflects your point of view in the closing paragraph. The question also wasn't strictly about championship golf. Also, you realise par is just a number? Therefore your comment "On the 18th tee with the leader Up 1, Down 1, Even or Up 2, it keeps it interesting to the final putt." is true of literally whatever hole par. Everyone plays the same course. Chambers Bay is far from an awful example - you had DJ coming up the last needing eagle to win, birdie to tie. He hits a great drive, an even better approach and then he three-jacks. That's a finishing hole offering the spectrum of outcomes that you want. A challenging par four is asking for you to two-putt to win a championship and likely play to the fat of the green rather than necessarily hit a courageous shot. You're asking for defensive golf, which - (and I stress) for me - is the dullest form of golf and a large reason of why the US Open interests me for about a day at most. Old school architecture =/= challenging, by the way. --- This isn't saying you're wrong about your reasons for liking a long par four, by the way - just explaining why I think it's a relatively boring finish.
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Post by b101 on Apr 3, 2021 10:25:51 GMT -5
Also, say it's a par four and DJ three-jacks? How does that make it any different? I am bewildered by that part...
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Post by abowidow5712 on Apr 3, 2021 11:35:51 GMT -5
Seems to be a difference of opinion here. My point is a lot of the BEST Championship courses do have a tough par 4 finisher, specifically U.S. Open courses and Augusta National. Does that necessarily make it the best strategy to finish a course with? No, not at all. Is it my favorite style of finishing hole? Yes and it's featured on many of the courses I like the most. I've made my opinion known of penal over strategy golf many times on the forum now. I know it's not in the majority, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
My point about three jacking is that it's one thing to three jack a tough par 4 for bogey to lose a tournament, it's just awful to three jack a par 5 for par to lose. Bogey on the 18th hole vs Par on the 18th. I understand it's not expected to get to a par 5 in two, but most par 5's that are the finishing hole are reachable in two. Speith made birdie in round 4 at Chambers Bay and felt bad about winning the U.S. open on a three putt par.
Not trying to single Chambers Bay out either, just didn't agree with that being a great example because it's initially designed to be a tough par 4. I like it as a par 4 for my reasons listed and you like it as a par 5 for your reasons listed. I like the idea of protecting par and you don't seem to care too much for it. All just a preference of what we like. This is a poll thread with a decent amount of votes now and I am the only difficult vote so...
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Post by mvpmanatee on Apr 3, 2021 21:21:36 GMT -5
I am still a bit confused about how 18 being a par 4 or par 5 on any course is worth making it a better or worse finishing hole. At the end of the day it's just a golf hole. Whether it's a tough 4 or an easy 5, I just don't personally see why it matters all that much. Maybe I am just being naïve to the influence that par has. Like tpetro said, I LOVE the idea of having the 18th hole be a "bridge" in the routing. I have never thought of that before but that concept excites me more than any. (18 at Friar's head immediately comes to mind)
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Apr 3, 2021 22:16:43 GMT -5
Personally, I like to try to find the green site that offers the best combination of visual and strategic interest and design backwards from there. This strategy, to me, offers a “best of both worlds” type scenario where the 18th has both strategic significance when applicable and and enough visual interest to be memorable even if score is unimportant.
I chose epic scale out of the choices because I felt that best represented my philosophy specifically with 18 at pebble in mind. I suppose it’s an easy opinion to have, but a better finishing hole there exists not. It’s about as perfect a combination of dramatic environment, strategic importance, and opportunity for a dramatic finish.
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Post by shotstone on Apr 5, 2021 11:19:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 17:15:14 GMT -5
I think it would depend on what kind of story you’re trying to tell. The dramatic conclusion can be on 18 but it doesn’t have to. Eighteen at Cypress Point gets lots of criticism as it follows three very dramatic holes yet I still feel it’s still a strong finishing hole where an errant shot can cause trouble. To stick with the poll questions, make it fun, but with enough risk/reward to keep you thinking. I also believe a good looking clubhouse behind the eighteenth green is a great sightline as you approach the green. Let’s you know you’ve arrived.
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