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Post by alejandroacantilado on Apr 1, 2021 12:35:18 GMT -5
What's everyone's favorite type of finishing hole? Also, what are your favorite examples of each. I recognize that some of these categories bleed into each other, but still think it's a fun way to frame it. I, personally, lean towards epic.
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Post by timh on Apr 1, 2021 12:51:57 GMT -5
EPIC for me, Pebble Beach is the classic 18th imho. Glory or go home...yes, I've been known to start packing the bags by the 2nd shot, but man is it exhilarating when you nail it for a birdie...an if need be a par.
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Post by cd06 on Apr 1, 2021 13:46:55 GMT -5
As much as I love 18 at Pebble Beach, I do feel like the epic finisher has become a bit stale. At a lot of "American-style" courses you see on tour the 18th holes are often big par four/risk reward par five - overused, IMO. I love fun, fun, fun to finish out - one of the quirkiest and most brilliant finishers I've played IRL is Woking's 18th (A Surrey heathland course) - 300 yards downhill with a pond on the right that tempts you to go for it - but with the clubhouse directly to the left it's a little scary! While 18 at Woking isn't the worlds best finisher, I do like a fun finish - 18 at Royal Hague in Holland is really quirky and I like that one a lot. Par 3 finishers are cool too - my home course has a really lovely one over a lake (of course ).
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Post by shotstone on Apr 1, 2021 13:58:28 GMT -5
As much as I love 18 at Pebble Beach, I do feel like the epic finisher has become a bit stale. At a lot of "American-style" courses you see on tour the 18th holes are often big par four/risk reward par five - overused, IMO. I love fun, fun, fun to finish out - one of the quirkiest and most brilliant finishers I've played IRL is Woking's 18th (A Surrey heathland course) - 300 yards downhill with a pond on the right that tempts you to go for it - but with the clubhouse directly to the left it's a little scary! While 18 at Woking isn't the worlds best finisher, I do like a fun finish - 18 at Royal Hague in Holland is really quirky and I like that one a lot. Par 3 finishers are cool too - my home course has a really lovely one over a lake (of course ). I think I'm in this camp. Our club finishes on a sweeping dogleg left par 5, nothing major risk reward to it though. Second shot is well uphill over the entry road. Bar and patio right, club house back right, big amphitheater green. Just an absolute blast to play. Big hitters are probably driver 5-wood,regular members generally laying up. I dunno it's just a blast of a hole to play.
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Post by abowidow5712 on Apr 2, 2021 6:02:02 GMT -5
I like the idea of having 18 be a difficult to make par hole. Then it's no cake walk up 18 to win a tournament. You have to play two good shots and two solid putts to make par to win. Or making birdie even that much more rewarding on the 18th hole. Bethpage Black is another good example.
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Post by b101 on Apr 2, 2021 6:29:57 GMT -5
Nothing worse than the final hole of a tournament being a grind to make par - it's the least interesting viewing/playing, particularly in game. Give me Chambers' Bay 18th and the drama that comes with that any day.
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Post by mvpmanatee on Apr 2, 2021 6:53:07 GMT -5
I think my favorite type of finishing hole is a hole that ties the entire 18 together. It might not be the best view, the most strategic hole, or the toughest or easiest hole, but it is a good memorable golf hole that reminds you after the round of what the course is all about. It's the last chance players get to see what you are giving them, so it's a great time to remind them the kind of property that they just spent the last 4 hours walking around on. I don't really know if that fit into the "fun" category per say, as I wouldn't say that it being fun is the true descriptor of the qualities of the hole, but it's the closest given the options. Great question!! I really love these threads
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Post by alejandroacantilado on Apr 2, 2021 7:36:59 GMT -5
Nothing worse than the final hole of a tournament being a grind to make par - it's the least interesting viewing/playing, particularly in game. Give me Chambers' Bay 18th and the drama that comes with that any day. Ok so you are definitely not Dustin Johnson.
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Post by lessthanbread on Apr 2, 2021 9:10:53 GMT -5
Thinking about all my courses so far, I feel like I've only done one good finishing hole and that was my first publish oddly enough. When I think about a great 18th, I want par to be the least likely score and ideally play on the easier side, encouraging the aggressive play to keep up with the field. For me, the 18th is all about dramatic tournament golf
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Post by SteelVike on Apr 2, 2021 9:42:59 GMT -5
In a lot of my previous courses I always liked to end on a risk/reward par 5. I really liked to give the players an opportunity to get an eagle on the last hole to win a match. With my most recent courses I have gone with more of a half par hole on 18 with other scoreable holes leading up to it. I think having the half par on 18 really adds to the intensity of a match going to the 18th hole, especially in match play. Typically, match play doesn't get past 16/17 holes so if it does get to the 18th I feel the hole should be won by the player that executes all the correct shots. Hit the fairway, stick the approach, make a nice putt and you've probably won the match. Miss the fairway/green or leave yourself a long putt, you've probably lost the match.
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Post by alejandroacantilado on Apr 2, 2021 12:10:35 GMT -5
Thinking about all my courses so far, I feel like I've only done one good finishing hole and that was my first publish oddly enough. When I think about a great 18th, I want par to be the least likely score and ideally play on the easier side, encouraging the aggressive play to keep up with the field. For me, the 18th is all about dramatic tournament golf Yeah I've mixed it up, of my courses, they have either ended in a gambling par 5 or a tough, scenic par 4. Wincoma's 18th, which hosted the CC tour events this week, was by far the toughest hole on the course- it's like a par 4 version of the 18th at Pebble. I actually designed it as a par 5 and wasn't really liking the second shot, so I shortened it and gave it a little more room around the green. That said it had a stroke average that was harder than 1 of the par 5's so maybe I should have left it!
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Post by whodatmatt34 on Apr 2, 2021 12:51:39 GMT -5
I prefer to go with a mid-long par 4 with some real danger. My thinking is that this type of hole can give you the most even split between birdie and par. While the risk/reward par 5 seems like it'd the most exciting finisher, I find that most people end up scoring a 4 on those either way. I'd rather put 3 a little more in play, while still having enough danger that par doesn't feel like a given.
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Post by tpetro on Apr 2, 2021 15:21:28 GMT -5
I don't think it's productive to box yourself into any of these - each has its time and, like mvpmanatee said, it's about what ties the course together. Pebble is heroic, thus 18 should be heroic. Shinnecock and Bethpage are brutally tough, so 18 should match. My only guiding principle is really routing/clubhouse location. That way, I can find the best green site for 17 whether it be 150 or 650 yards from the clubhouse, and not worry about what I think 18 "needs" to be. I also love using 18 to transition environments. A hole that starts on the cliffs and climbs back inland towards the clubhouse is always a fun way to finish that gives the player the beauty of the whole plot on just one hole.
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Post by alejandroacantilado on Apr 2, 2021 16:00:35 GMT -5
I don't think it's productive to box yourself into any of these - each has its time and, like mvpmanatee said, it's about what ties the course together. Pebble is heroic, thus 18 should be heroic. Shinnecock and Bethpage are brutally tough, so 18 should match. My only guiding principle is really routing/clubhouse location. That way, I can find the best green site for 17 whether it be 150 or 650 yards from the clubhouse, and not worry about what I think 18 "needs" to be. I also love using 18 to transition environments. A hole that starts on the cliffs and climbs back inland towards the clubhouse is always a fun way to finish that gives the player the beauty of the whole plot on just one hole. Yeah agreed. I often find it's tough to make a compelling final hole because I have to get back to the clubhouse, and is almost inevitably a (literal) uphill climb. So many great courses finish with uphill holes for that reason you can't even count them. So sometimes it's a challenge to make that second shot interesting. In the case of Cypress Point, that 18th was clearly dictated by making 16 and 17 and using as much coast as possibly, and then the anticlimax was necessary to get back home.
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Post by abowidow5712 on Apr 3, 2021 10:07:07 GMT -5
Nothing worse than the final hole of a tournament being a grind to make par - it's the least interesting viewing/playing, particularly in game. Give me Chambers' Bay 18th and the drama that comes with that any day. This is an interesting comment... Just about all of the top tier American championship style courses have a difficult finishing hole. Winged Foot, Merion, Southern Hills, Augusta National, others listed already, the list can go on here. From a player's perspective this is the last type of hole you want to play to win a tournament. On the 18th tee with the leader Up 1, Down 1, Even or Up 2, it keeps it interesting to the final putt. A cake walk par 5 is expected to make par or better. Who wants to see somebody lose a major on a three putt par? Chambers Bay is an awful example because it's designed to play as a difficult par 4 for championship golf. Jordan Speith complained about the hole because it was too difficult. The USGA changed the hole to a par 5 on Sunday and he ended up winning the U.S. Open because of it. If one of the best tour players is complaining about the hole's difficulty then it's a pretty difficult golf hole which means it's a pretty good golf hole in my opinion. A difficult challenging par 4 makes you play great golf til the final stroke. I do agree with mvpmanatee and tpetro that the course's finishing hole should reflect it's overall strategy and feel. And I think a great golf course should be difficult that makes you think on every shot. I know a lot of people prefer the wide open easy to hit fairways with fairly level approach shots, not me. I like the old school architecture, I like a golf course to be challenging.
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