Had some time tonight so here's the hole by hole feedback I promised you. fair warning: these can get a little long winded as I try to "leave no stone unturned" so to speak and really try to make sure I explain my points in detail so there's no confusion. Might want to grab a fresh beer before you go any further!
Keizer Cliffs Beta: by mde103
Conditions:Pin: 2
Fairways: Firm (adjusted from the default of slow due to the highlands glitch)
Greens: Firm
Green Speed: 187
Wind: High SE shifting to S occasionally
Driver used: Hogan 291 carry
First Impressions: The planting you have done so far looks great! very rugged and natural looking. You might want to try a bit of "free lance" sand texturing in the planted areas to make them appear even more rugged and dunes-y than they already do. You might want to consider raising the inclination of the sun. It's currently sitting pretty low which results in some heavy glare when playing towards it. Now, onto the first tee!
Hole 1: Good visibility from the tee. I had no problem seeing everything I needed to. You might consider widening the fairway in front of the right fairway bunker to fill up the space and fit the framing of the hole a bit better (nit-picky). There's good width in the driving zone for a long par 4 (didn't realize until I saw my scorecard that this hole plays as a par 5! Don't know if that was your intention or not!). The front greenside bunker is well placed. It encourages players to take on the fairway bunker on the right to get the best angle into the green. You might consider creating a higher tier on the back right portion of the green to both add interest to the contours and provide players coming in from the right a slope to help work the ball around to pins on the left side of the green. The front greenside bunker is pretty flat. It could be deeper and have a more defined lip in order to be more intimidating. The rear bunkers are extremely raised along their back edges. I'd consider softening that some as they are easily visible from the fairway. The green/fairway transition area on this hole needs some work. "Lions-Mouth" style greens (which is what this is) can be especially tricky in this regard because they require extra space on either side to go around the central greenside bunker. My suggestion here would be to embrace this need for width and abandon the whole "fairway directly into green" look. Instead, widen out the fairway around the green and create some collection/chipping areas. Since the approach to this green will often be made with a mid or long iron, the potential for a missed green is high and the ground game is much more of a factor as the ball rolls more (especially on 187 greens!). Chipping/collection areas allow you to effectively punish off-line shots by feeding the ball further from the hole without penalizing too much with a crappy lie. They also encourage players to consider multiple options for recovery shots rather then just mindlessly chipping or splashing a ball out of the heavy rough. I'd also like to see you build up the slope a bit on the left side leading into the green allowing players to feed shots in to left side pins. As I alluded to before, this hole and the overall plot are very open/windswept and linksy (love it!). This is good because you can really put a premium on using the ground contours (fun!) to get shots close to the hole. This hole definitely has the potential to be a very immediately immersive start to the round!
Hole 2: The glare from the sun and reflection off the water on this hole is severe! It's too bad too, because I thought the sightline here was very good! I especially liked how it sort of played off the last hole being completely land-locked (no ocean views) and gives a nice tease of the ocean in the distance. The planting on this hole is good but you could consider adding some taller bushes or small trees to the right to both make the lone tall bush seem more natural and to make the view down the hole the focal point. As is, the open space to the right of the bush keeps trying to draw my eye away from where it should be going. I liked how the camber of this fairway was pulling everything right (worse angle) effectively narrowing the "optimal" driving zone while still offering plenty of fairway for the less bold. The planting down the left side of the hole is good but needs something behind the left FW bunker as viewed from the tee. I don't know what you have planned there (if anything) but it's noticeably bare at longer distances. I'm not in love with the green here. I like the
shape but the contours need help. I'm not a huge template guy but you have the perfect set up here for a reverse-Redan style green. I'd try to slope green so that shots coming in from the left with a bit of left to right movement to them will feed down the length of the green and reach right side pins without having to carry the bunkers. There is also room to expand the green rearward and possibly mess about with a higher tier back left to give you an extra pin position and help create the aforementioned slope. The bunker behind the green is unnecessary unless you plan on making it into a dune. if that's the case, leave it as it's not really in play. If you want to up the level of difficulty a bit, you could consider putting in a small bunker pin high to the left of the green to challenge players trying to use the slope to feed the ball to the hole
. The front greenside bunker is really big. You might consider extending the dune short right of the green closer to the green and bleeding the bunker into it. I was also not to keen on the first two holes being exactly the same length and playing in nearly the exact same direction. However, well executed and varied strategy can mitigate that issue some. As I mentioned on hole 1, I feel that you could really open up some more fun and interesting short game opportunities if you abandoned the "fairway directly into green" look and took more of an "apron around the green" approach. I missed the green on this hole while playing it and had only a boring, run of the mill chip out of the heavy rough for my third. I think you could also take a bit more liberty with green contours here. I know you're designing with the notion that your greens will be playable at top speed but that doesn't mean they have to be easy. Be creative! As the green sits now, it's pretty flat apart from the two "tits" on the right edge by the bunker (which I didn't care for) and doesn't really fit the undulating nature of the plot. Loads of potential on this hole, just needs a bit of work!
Hole 3: I liked the cape-style idea off the tee here. However, the hole appears a bit awkward as it currently sits. The bunkers are too big and the fairway is too narrow. Bring the start of the fairway back towards the tee to even with the short bunker on the right side. Also, widen it considerably in that area. Into the wind, this will be a lllloooooonnnnnnngggggggg hole so leave plenty of area for players to hit the fairway as, into the wind, a missed fairway renders this hole pretty much unreachable in regulation. Aesthetically speaking, I'd consider raising the treed area to the left into a low hill to help define the hole corridor a bit. The area to the immediate inside of the dogleg where the bunker currently sits would look fantastic as a sort of sandy, wild, brushy waste area. If you go this route, add lots of debris and brush to add to the unpredictability of a recovery shot from here to discourage players from taking the short way home
. The fairway area around the green is getting closer to what I was going on about the green surrounds on the first two holes. This one might be a bit
too big but I really like the idea of giving players a bail out to the left. I'd add a bunker front right of the green to encourage players to cut off as much of the dogleg as they dare in order to get the best angle to the hole. Said bunker would turn this green from one that favors a draw into one that favors a fade which must be hit from a hook lie (fun!) and be very difficult for players taking a more conservative line off the tee to get close to the hole
. The green contours here are actually pretty good. I love the run off feeding balls hit too far left down into the collection area! My only suggestion there would be to lower the collection area some and turn it into a bit more of a bowl to ensure players don't end up running all the way into the heavy rough (unless you wanted to be a real dick
). The rear greenside bunkers are ok. you could maybe bring the back middle one a bit closer to the green so it's in play more. Again, wicked potential here! Just needs some TLC!
Hole 4: This hole, sadly, I didn't care for at all
. First off, the hole is very flat which is in stark contrast to the first three holes. Don't want to be too critical here as maybe you just haven't sculpted it yet, but in it's current state, it needs some help. Secondly, this might be the easiest tee shot on a reachable par 5 I've ever played in this game! the fairway is wide open and has really nothing to make me think or discourage me from going into full on attack mode besides maybe wanting to favor the right side as that's where the green opens up from but the contours and camber of the hole make an approach from the left nearly as easy. When comparing real life golf course design and virtual course design, I feel that par 5s are where you see the most divergency between the two. IRL, designers must at least
consider the varying levels of skill possessed by the people playing the course and design holes that take that understanding into account. In 2k21, we designers can pretty much throw that out the window as everyone hits it 300 yards and never severely miss-hits anything (duffs, tops, shanks, etc.). Therefore, due to the increased ability to score, 99% of players in our game expect to make birdies and eagles on par 5's and are much more likely to take on supreme risk in order to do so. As a designer, take advantage of that extreme aggression! Bait players into trying to pull off a hero shot that even they know they shouldn't! That way, you can not only protect par better but it becomes much more meaningful when a player successfully pulls off the aforementioned hero shot and it leads to a birdie or eagle. As this hole currently sits, it's pretty much a gimme birdie unless you really mess up. If I could explain further, I have what I refer to as a "true par" rating system that I employ when rating a golf hole that at least
attempts to assign a more accurate par value to a hole based off of what I feel the average score of majority of 2K21 players would be on said hole. The system takes into account total length, quantity and nature of hazards, width of driving zone, green, and possible layup zones, relative difficulty of green, and any other factors that I see that add or subtract from the difficulty of a hole. Upon arriving at what I feel is a reasonable evaluation, I assign the hole a true par value that carries out into tenths of par. This hole I assigned a true par value of 4.3.The reason this is important is because I feel that any hole with a "true par" of more or less then .5 strokes from it's actual par value (on the scorecard) has been assigned the wrong par. To summarize, using the aforementioned rating system, I feel that this hole would play better in relation to par as a difficult par 4 than an easy par 5. There is plenty of room in the corridor in which this hole sits to move some earth and "create" a good golf hole. However, as it currently sits, I'd strongly consider blowing this one up and starting from scratch. Due to the more difficult nature of the first three holes ( true par values of 4.2, 4.0, and 4.4 respectively) this could be a good place to stick a sort of "breather" hole in but birdies should still be earned at least a little bit!.
Hole 5: like the concept of this hole but the surfacing needs a lot of help. The lay up zone (before reaching the right FW bunker) doesn't need to extend so far to the right as its the worst angle to the green. The green angles from front left to back right so players will want to ideally
avoid the right side if they can. Given the drive-able nature of the hole, you could even play around with moving the tree line way in on the right making the green accessible from the tee only if the player works it in from left to right. Extend the fairway out on the left a bit but add some trouble (bunkers, waste area, etc.) to challenge players seeking the best angle. This hole could really benefit from some better framing as the corridor for a short par 4 is very wide. The very short length (in relation to par) of the hole allows you to take more liberties in challenging players to be accurate. Normally, I'm not a huge fan of trees being close to the line of play but I think I'd make an exception here. If you're going to keep this hole, I'd use the trees to increasingly narrow the hole the closer the player got to the green. Speaking from my own perspective as a player, my eyes light up on >350 yard par 4s because they're potentially drive-able and at least offer a "less than full swing" approach to the green thus increasing the potential for scoring well. The trick is, as a designer, to make the player consider all of their options instead of simply grabbing the big stick and "lettin' 'er fly". On this hole, besides the trees I mentioned earlier, I'd make the bunker cluster on the right very deep and full of plants, bushes, logs, and other crap to make the potential for successful recovery shots very low. Hopefully, that will be enough to make players think twice before having a go for the green and possibly even going after a difficult pin. As is, I got lucky, had it down wind, and just bombed it over the bunkers and had a straight in 20 footer for eagle. In terms of green contouring, I like the idea here. However, I would do very little on this hole in attempting to help players get close to the hole. The short length of the hole firmly places the emphasis on accuracy so continue that theme through the green. I would try to make difficult pins that would have players seriously questioning their ability to be accurate even with wedge in hand!
Hole 6: Like the idea of the split fairway here but the centerline bunker is HUGE!!!! and doesn't fit the aesthetic of the course at all. This is the type of bunker I'd expect to see in South Florida, not the Pacific NW! If you decide to stick with the split fairway, I'd strongly consider a cluster of smaller bunkers or making some small dunes/natural areas as you seem to have a good knack for making them. You could possibly even combine the two also. One thing to keep in mind regarding FW bunkers and bunkers in general, is that they are actually
LESS penal that the heavy rough in terms of lie percentages. They're only scary if they're very deep thus bringing the lip into play. Given the flattish nature of this hole, you'd have a very difficult time adding adding depth to the FW bunker and making it seem natural. Looking at this hole currently, I'm actually more afraid of missing the better fairway (left one) to the
left than I am missing it to the right! However, all that being said, I like the attempt at strategy here and feel that this is one of your better greens on the course although it does feel a bit similar to #2.
Hole 7: Like the "isolated" feel to this hole (not easy to pull off on an open style course!). Wish I could have seen the green better though! Visual appeal is not the most important thing on a golf course but it matters more on par threes than anywhere else IMO. Unlike par 4s and 5s, everyone is playing their approach from the same spot which really offers a nice opportunity to show off some extra good planting or maybe an off-course feature that you put a lot of time into. Take advantage of that! I'd recommend raising the tee about 15 feet for starters and see where that goes then adjust as you see fit. The green site has loads of potential but lacks character as it currently sits. I think you could really go wild with green contours here as well as adding some more dunes and planting. The area to the left of the bunkers is very flat and boring. Could create a dune here to add to the already good "isolated" feel of the hole. I appreciate you leaving an area in front of the green for run up shots. Like I said earlier, loads of potential, just not much character, Get wild here and see what you can come up with!
Hole 8: Now this is a much better centerline bunker complex!. Excellent placement, angle relative to the hole, and sizing. much better job of presenting three clear options here. I want to go left with driver but it's hard and risky, I could go right with driver but the angle sucks, or I could layup before the bunker but have a long approach on a short hole. Great strategic design! The only thing that I can see that would make this hole better from the tee shot perspective would be if the hole were about 30 yards longer simply to make the angles matter more. On this type of hole, I like to keep 3 or 5 wood a viable option, but do it at the cost of a long or mid iron into a green made made to receive a short iron or wedge. as it is, I hit 3 wood and had a PW in (however, the partial blindness created by the bunker did make me feel more "penalized" for laying up). The green size and angle are both perfect here! The only thing I didn't like about the green was the "tit" on the right edge. I think a double or even triple tiered green would work well here. Make the tiers narrow enough to require precise distance control with wedge but subtle enough to be able to run pitches up the slopes. Thanks again for leaving a strip of fairway for running approaches! All around, this one is a pretty damn good golf hole. Just needs a few minor tweaks!
Hole 9: liked the sight line leading up to the clubhouse but overall, the hole was very flat leading to difficulty seeing any of the features of the hole. I liked how the tee shot here favored a draw where the tee shot on 8 favored a fade. Nice variety! There were a lot of similarities on this hole and hole #4. I felt the tee shot was a bit too easy for a very gettable par 5. The green site for this hole is nice but the shape and relative lack of contouring didn't make me feel very challenged when hitting my second. I'd either make it shallower or get creative with some contours to increase the unpredictability for long approaches.
Hole 10: Again a pretty easy par 5 here. The water does add some interest but it's not really in play as the best approach is from the right. As a player, I love easy par 5s but only because they offer up a realistic opportunity for eagle and an almost certain birdie. However, especially in this case with #9 being a par 5 of very similar length, there's real potential here for a player to be 4 under par in only two holes! It's not necessarily a bad thing but doesn't really offer up much challenge and makes birdies/eagles less memorable than they should be. Since this is the first hole with water in play, I would've liked to see you attempt to make me challenge it more in order to have a shot at getting on the green in two.
Hole 11: Nice use of the lighting to create a dramatic tee shot! I like that you included a FW bunker on the right to really challenge driver accuracy here. Overall, the look of the hole is quite nice. The sight line going down the coast is going to need some work as its pretty bleak behind the green. Liked the "infinity green" look on approach. I'd make the green bigger out to the left to bring the water into play more and add some dunes and/or planting between the fairway and the coast near the green. Could experiment with some partial blindness here from the left side of the fairway to left pins.
Hole 12: First thing I'd change on this hole is move the tee back into the fantastic looking dunes to the right of #11 green! Great little area that isn't being used for anything! This move would both lengthen the hole some and shift it from a draw hole to a fade hole where all the trouble left must be taken on in order to get the best angle especially in any kind of northerly wind (right off the water, highly suggest). It would take a bit of sculpting work to reduce the blindness but would make for a better hole IMO. In its current state, the hole is already pretty blind off the tee. All I can see from the tee is cliffs! If it weren't for the game aligning to the FW waypoint, I'd have no idea where to go. It plays ok but being that these coastal holes are intended to be the highlight of the round, show 'em off! Make sure players can see all the hard work you did! I love the green site for this hole. I could almost hear the waves crashing into the rocks lol.
Hole 13: pretty view but needs something to the right to draw focus to the green more. Possibly some taller bushes or trees in the planted area to the right? As is, my eye is drawn directly to the bunker, not the flag.
Hole 14: Again, pretty blind off the tee. Pin #2 on this hole is
really tough. The idea of the carry over the little cove is a good one but is very difficult to make meaningful in a game whose mathematical algorithms make it fairly easy to know whether or not you can make the carry. I was unfortunate enough to get this one into the wind. That lead to "Forced lay up for long iron approach" being my only option (boring!) I'm guessing maybe the 8th at pebble beach was the inspiration for this hole? It is a beautiful golf hole but is really not that great from a strategic perspective IMO. This hole
could work but I'd either wind the fairway around the cove to give players the opportunity to hit driver even if the y cant make the carry, shorten the length of the second shot, or re-work the green to make it more receptive for long approach shots.
Hole 15: Sight line is good but not great. Could use something to block the glare form the water like some well placed trees or bushes. I'm sure you're planning on doing some planting behind the green in the distance so I won't elaborate on it. I feel like the inlet on the right side of the green should be more visible as it is a guaranteed one stroke penalty if hit into. the overall framing of the hole could be better. The green is very similar to the ones on 5 and 13 might want ot switch it up some. I liked the hump on the back edge of the green that either helps or hurts your approach depending on where it hits.
Hole 16: Well framed tee shot. FW could be a teensy bit wider in the "less than driver" zone since running approaches will be difficult with the bunker in front of the green. I think you could really capture a nice look if you made all the area around the green here into a waste-y, dunes-y type area encouraging a lofted, aerial approach. Pretty much every other hole on the course offers at least one run-up opportunity and this could be a nice change of pace if executed correctly (think #4 at spyglass hill). As is, the front bunker looks very "just plopped down". You could also play with angles and hazards given the relatively small, narrow green. I like the green contours. I would, however, try to blend/smooth them out some as the green is pretty small and can't really support "sharp" tiers. Turns it too much into target golf.
Holes 17 and 18: already discussed
Conclusion: You have a potentially great plot here. Please
Don't rush your publish with this one! Smooth out your green/FW transitions and surfacing in general. Consider my suggestion about enclosing the greens with fairway to open up short game creativity. You have several great green sites on this track that just need some undulations and contours to truly unlock their character. As they currently sit, the par 5s are, IMO, the weakest part of the course. However, you have plenty enough land to change that! Embrace the rugged look more and attempt some waste/sandy dune areas. I accidentally stumbled upon a technique to do them with a couple weeks ago that is not only very easy but yields some very nice results which Ill happily share with you if you'd like! I'm really excited for the potential of this plot but it's still very rough. I'd strongly suggest working more towards a "beta 2.0" for now rather than a finished product. You also seemed interested in possibly changing the routing to use the coast in more diverse ways. I took the liberty of jotting down some notes for an alternate routing (as best as I could trying to zoom around on xbox, anyway
) that I'd be happy to send your way if youre interested in them. I hope this (crazy) long review can help you at least in some way get the most out of the great plot you've created here! I enjoyed doing it! Holler at me if you need clarification on anything.