bigmike
Caddy
Posts: 61
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bigmike on Dec 18, 2020 0:35:42 GMT -5
I absolutely understand multiple points on both sides of this argument. I only bring up this example because I'm curious to see what the feedback is...
IRL golf is meant to be played by hitting the ball with a square club face right? I play with a slightly open club face on every damn shot lol. (Not relevant but my fav short game shot is even a flop shot where I open that thing damn near flat and take a full backswing and try to bring rain down haha) I drive the ball on average 275 and hit a 7 iron 160 playing my little fade. I aim a little left a fixed amount on every shot. With the driver I can reach back for a little more and maybe catch 290 or 300 but I aim OB left. If i try to speed up my hands to close the face I get wildly inconsistent. I could duck hook it, low bullet straight left, or even slice it because I accidentally speed everything else up BUT my hands lol. So I play my @!$#ed up little swing and shoot in the low 80's cause it's predictable and I can handle my miss hits. My question is, do you look down upon my game because of that and do I need to try to swing how I am supposed to? Playing my swing gives me an advantage over my buddies or in a tournament because I only miss one way. Either I accidentally hit it straight or I fade it too far right.
Honestly I'm curious to hear different perspectives on this.
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Post by twofor22 on Dec 18, 2020 6:10:00 GMT -5
I absolutely understand multiple points on both sides of this argument. I only bring up this example because I'm curious to see what the feedback is... IRL golf is meant to be played by hitting the ball with a square club face right? I play with a slightly open club face on every damn shot lol. (Not relevant but my fav short game shot is even a flop shot where I open that thing damn near flat and take a full backswing and try to bring rain down haha) I drive the ball on average 275 and hit a 7 iron 160 playing my little fade. I aim a little left a fixed amount on every shot. With the driver I can reach back for a little more and maybe catch 290 or 300 but I aim OB left. If i try to speed up my hands to close the face I get wildly inconsistent. I could duck hook it, low bullet straight left, or even slice it because I accidentally speed everything else up BUT my hands lol. So I play my @!$#ed up little swing and shoot in the low 80's cause it's predictable and I can handle my miss hits. My question is, do you look down upon my game because of that and do I need to try to swing how I am supposed to? Playing my swing gives me an advantage over my buddies or in a tournament because I only miss one way. Either I accidentally hit it straight or I fade it too far right. Honestly I'm curious to hear different perspectives on this. I'm like that but the other way, I'll either hit it straight or draw it left, and I don't know how I've got to this point because I used to fade everything. Either way it's predictable so I usually just aim a little right so if I hit it straight or draw it, it still ends up in a reasonable spot. Of course, it depends on the hole layout too. I suppose the difference is that I'm swinging with a nice smooth and pretty consistent tempo in real life rather than deliberately trying to smash the crap out of it to get it to draw left.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Dec 18, 2020 6:21:55 GMT -5
I absolutely understand multiple points on both sides of this argument. I only bring up this example because I'm curious to see what the feedback is... IRL golf is meant to be played by hitting the ball with a square club face right? I play with a slightly open club face on every damn shot lol. (Not relevant but my fav short game shot is even a flop shot where I open that thing damn near flat and take a full backswing and try to bring rain down haha) I drive the ball on average 275 and hit a 7 iron 160 playing my little fade. I aim a little left a fixed amount on every shot. With the driver I can reach back for a little more and maybe catch 290 or 300 but I aim OB left. If i try to speed up my hands to close the face I get wildly inconsistent. I could duck hook it, low bullet straight left, or even slice it because I accidentally speed everything else up BUT my hands lol. So I play my @!$#ed up little swing and shoot in the low 80's cause it's predictable and I can handle my miss hits. My question is, do you look down upon my game because of that and do I need to try to swing how I am supposed to? Playing my swing gives me an advantage over my buddies or in a tournament because I only miss one way. Either I accidentally hit it straight or I fade it too far right. Honestly I'm curious to hear different perspectives on this. Don't play IRL, so can't comment on that. Only going to point out what has happened in this series since tempo was introduced. In TGC2 and TGC2019 tempo was far easier than in PGA2k21. Few players played for fast downswing draws except to maybe get a few more yards in TGC2019. This was mainly done to reach longer holes and a few may have used it off of the tee regularly. I don't really remember any benefit in TGC2 in playing a fast downswing. Now that a) the tempo has been made quite a bit more difficult versus those games combined with b) the clubs having attributes for distance and forgiveness I think some only gave trying for perfects a cursory try and then just gave up when they heard about the red fast technique. The mechanics in this series change from one game to the next, so while you can try an IRL comparison it doesn't really work. Not many in TGC2019 (or basically no one in TGC2) were using this technique until this version of the game. Then it took way off as people found it an easy workaround.
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Post by WhatAboutAmeobi on Dec 18, 2020 7:28:04 GMT -5
I play for fasts with the driver because I find slows are disproportionately worse than fasts. By going for fasts, I'm able to basically take the right side of the course out of play, which is somewhat realistic in that a 2-way miss in golf is a killer. But it's the only way I can remotely have a chance to compete in this game and it's not foolproof.
Where I really see a problem with tempo in this game is it's still possible to hit a 300 yard drive in the fairway with a very fast. If we're going for a more realistic game, that tempo should create a shot that dives severely left and barely gets off the ground, the way a true duck hook would in real life. It basically should never be playable.
For approach shots, I use forgiving clubs and go for perfects because I want to be as precise as possible and I want to be able to stop the ball, and my concern is that playing for fasts would make that harder to do. It's also the way I play in real life. A predominant shape off the tee (fade in my case) and then basically straight with the irons.
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Post by SloanerTW on Dec 18, 2020 9:51:32 GMT -5
If you want to improve work on every shot 25yds and in. If you can almost hole out consistently from these distances everything else doesn’t really matter. As far as approach shots go learn fast slow and perfect then you can execute any shot and pick the one that is best for the situation you are in.
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mega8deth8
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 107
Tour: Platinum
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Post by mega8deth8 on Dec 18, 2020 10:33:51 GMT -5
If you want to improve work on every shot 25yds and in. If you can almost hole out consistently from these distances everything else doesn’t really matter. As far as approach shots go learn fast slow and perfect then you can execute any shot and pick the one that is best for the situation you are in. Agree 100%. Executing short pitches and chips are a big difference in this game.
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Post by mrohde4 on Dec 19, 2020 0:15:38 GMT -5
I absolutely understand multiple points on both sides of this argument. I only bring up this example because I'm curious to see what the feedback is... IRL golf is meant to be played by hitting the ball with a square club face right? I play with a slightly open club face on every damn shot lol. (Not relevant but my fav short game shot is even a flop shot where I open that thing damn near flat and take a full backswing and try to bring rain down haha) I drive the ball on average 275 and hit a 7 iron 160 playing my little fade. I aim a little left a fixed amount on every shot. With the driver I can reach back for a little more and maybe catch 290 or 300 but I aim OB left. If i try to speed up my hands to close the face I get wildly inconsistent. I could duck hook it, low bullet straight left, or even slice it because I accidentally speed everything else up BUT my hands lol. So I play my @!$#ed up little swing and shoot in the low 80's cause it's predictable and I can handle my miss hits. My question is, do you look down upon my game because of that and do I need to try to swing how I am supposed to? Playing my swing gives me an advantage over my buddies or in a tournament because I only miss one way. Either I accidentally hit it straight or I fade it too far right. Honestly I'm curious to hear different perspectives on this. I hate the Red Fast strategy. It’s cheap and non-competitive. But to answer your question, I believe any comparisons between gameplay of the actual sport played on grass and a fixed universe computer program played on a couch using a joystick have little relevance or logic. Yes both involve golf. But until an actual Titleist can be catapulted through the air using nothing but a handheld joystick, how can we compare a computer program to the actual sport? Aiming 25 yards right but slamming the stick for a Red Fast over 18 holes cannot be compared to the challenges of real golf. It's apples and oranges. In your post, you discuss using a fade swing – and holy hell you sound like a really good player. But while you might believe you are “aiming” to the left, you’re actually aiming at the fairway. Differentiating between alignment and aim point is important. Important also is that your prevailing shot shape and fade-producing swing are yours, meaning you developed it through training and repetition. It's your version of the shot shaper, a very under-utilized feature. The fairway is your target, and your entire body is the vehicle getting the golf ball into the fairway. You can still miss left and right if your tempo isn't in sync. Your natural shot is a fade, but in order to execute that fade, you still must swing “perfectly” in order to execute the shot. I don’t think you are actually aiming left and then tricking your brain and body into making a swing that results in the ball reaching the fairway. To hit your target, you must execute your pre-determined swing “perfectly.” I believe HB has challenged players to do the same. Hit it “perfect.” The Red Fast is a failed swing - a mishit, shank, duff. It's failure. Let’s talk games. Not sports, but games. The author – or designer – of a game creates a specific pathway or set of rules that allow a player to both succeed and fail. From Chess to Pong to Mario Golf’s three-click, each game holds a formula to success that unlocks the competition. In PGA 2K21 (and all previous iterations), the designers have created a computer program simulating a sport that’s played inside robust data files. It’s a fixed universe - a fantasy land. In this version, the tempo is king. As the difficulty levels increase, the perfect tempo window shrinks. Sadly, the opposite seems to occur for the mishit windows – they grow. And because of this mishit window expansion, achieving a Fast mishit is more easily repeatable than a Perfect. At least it sure seems that way. The flaw is in the predictable ball flight result. In all TGCs, I’ve always believed the developers want you to be successful - they want you to “find it.” Between tempo and swing path, there is a magical swing in there somewhere, and the player is tasked with finding it. Different grips, different controller angles, different paths – it’s out there. Some versions were easier than others. Like any good designer of games, I believe HB’s objective is to present a fair challenge that is confined to the game parameters they’ve intentionally created. Whether it’s monopoly or chutes and ladders, there is a defined set of rules and norms that govern a game’s universe. In 2K21, the player’s target is 90 degrees from the club face and parallel to the player’s address. That’s how HB has defined a player’s “target.” The shot shaper feature is a strategic tool - their attempt to simulate working the ball. If HB intended for the Slow or Fast to act as the vehicle to left/right ball flight, then why have the shot shaper? The goal, in my opinion, is to challenge the player to reach the intended target by executing the “perfect” swing. Sidestepping around this challenge using the Red Fast is cheesy and goes against the spirit of the challenges presented by the designers. And it’s a crutch keeping players from realizing the designer's intent of truly plotting around a golf course by managing the mishits. 2K21 is about managing the mishits, not relying on them. You sound like a very talented player, but you’ve probably developed that talent through years of experience and practice. Your body works in concert to execute your Perfect swing. Like you said, a “fast” tempo could produce a duck hook or a slice. You could also improve your distance and consistency through numerous ways – lessons, exercise, strength training, and practice. Your PGA 2K21 avatar has the same talent regardless of how often or seldom he/she hits a shot. The clubs and their attributes don’t change either. It’s a computer game, not the sport. The real life pros on the PGA Tour (and all golfers for that matter) are rewarded for their habits – e.g. Bryson. You could play PGA 2K21 twelve hours per day and the avatar’s raw ability won’t change. When I add everything up - I bought the game, I agreed to enter its universe, and I want to be challenged. And ideally I could measure myself against other players facing the same challenge. There’s no money exchanged here, only self-fulfillment and competition. But hey, maybe I’m wrong – maybe HB intended for the Red Fast as a viable option as a stock shot. I doubt that though, it flies in the face of so many of the game’s core elements.
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Post by donkeypuncherben on Dec 19, 2020 3:45:14 GMT -5
If you want to improve work on every shot 25yds and in. If you can almost hole out consistently from these distances everything else doesn’t really matter. As far as approach shots go learn fast slow and perfect then you can execute any shot and pick the one that is best for the situation you are in.
Exactly. I am pretty sure, for any of these players around even par, if I took every shot for them inside 45 yards they would be averaging more like -6 or -7 for 18 holes. If sloaner took every shot for them inside that distance they would probably be shooting more like -9 each round without any improvement in the long game.
Learning the fast swing off the tee (especially if you can do it close to 105% swing) will also help the scores and this may make a difference between some guys in the lower or middle of the PGA tour ranks and the top of the PGA tour but it is not the main thing separating guys who shoot around even par from the PGA tour players.
Players who exclusivley use red fast for approach shots are at a significant disadvantage is certain green shapes, winds, and pin positions. It is not some kind of secret sauce.
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Post by ABU_Bear on Dec 19, 2020 10:10:20 GMT -5
I've advanced from CC-A to the Elite Tour playing for Perfects every shot. Do I get perfect every shot?..no where close...but am I trying to achieve the perfect swing every time?...yes
so to answer the original question...No you don't need to play the fasts to succeed at this game
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Post by jcauthen04 on Dec 19, 2020 10:21:50 GMT -5
I tried playing for red fasts in on casual round. I got better at it as I went along, but it took my mind so far away from a rational golf thinking mode that it felt like I was playing a different game. I didn't enjoy it. I like thinking as much as a golfer as I can as I play this game, and playing for red fasts doesn't equate to anything that's remotely analogous to the way I play the game in real life.
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ClassAct147
Weekend Golfer
Unlucky from dawn til dusk
Posts: 144
TGCT Name: ClassAct147
Tour: Platinum/TST
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Post by ClassAct147 on Dec 20, 2020 14:53:50 GMT -5
The red fasters are as abhorrent in my opinion as those who use formulas for putting. This is a golf game ffs. Try to play it like golf and stop trying to game the system at every opportunity 😠.
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Post by mrohde4 on Dec 20, 2020 16:50:57 GMT -5
The red fasters are as abhorrent in my opinion as those who use formulas for putting. This is a golf game ffs. Try to play it like golf and stop trying to game the system at every opportunity 😠. At least the putting with a formula still requires execution of the stroke. The Red Fast is both formulaic and a sidestep to the game’s required execution challenges.
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Post by dingersinger on Dec 20, 2020 17:51:31 GMT -5
I've never played any of the previous TGC games, so this is my first game in this series and on the tours. When I joined TGCTours a few weeks after the season started, my play was pretty inconsistent as I'd only ever played on pro (in matchmaking or with friends). I started watching various streams to try to improve my game and learned about the red fast strategy. I found that my consistency was much improved with it and so I stuck with it. As I've risen up the tours, it's allowed me to have fairly high GIR and FIR, and avoid completely wayward shots which I was more prone to playing for perfects. As my putting, chipping, and short game improved, the consistency it's given me on approaches has definitely helped, especially on CC courses, where the greens allow you to make lots of medium range putts.
Now that I'm competing on platinum, I'm dealing with its limitations. Landing the ball somewhere within 15 feet of the pin won't always give me a good birdie opportunity on more challenging courses. Less spin from the fast can be killer on some of the higher level courses where it was not as penalizing in CC courses/conditions. Also, playing a fast (right-handed) with stronger winds (particularly right to left) can be quite difficult to aim as it can be a bit of a 1 + 1 = 3 kind of thing at times, with the interaction between the hook and wind. There are definitely obvious benefits with the added consistency, and I've been able to have some success because of that. But the lack of extreme precision that you get from hitting a perfect can be handicapping in a lot of scenarios. Either way, for me to take the next step in my game I will definitely need to become more comfortable going for perfects depending on the situation.
With regards to the "morality" of it, I find trying to shoot as low as possible the most enjoyable way to play the game, and I will continue to try to do so. I think it would be smart of the devs to patch the red fast, perhaps add some additional variance to the aim or distance, or reduce the spin further to make it no longer viable as a primary option on approaches. Until or unless that happens though, I don't plan to give up on it and disadvantage myself to anyone who decides to use it. If you want to argue players going for perfects or mostly perfects are more skilled than me, I'm probably not going to disagree with you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 17:06:51 GMT -5
I would make the argument that if you are not playing sim golf does it really matter if you play fasts or not. The whole concept of aids are there to make the game easier and give us the crazy low scores we see here, incuding TST who play selective aids. It's not really realistic golf anyway it is arcade golf so is there a right or wrong way to play?. Just my view on this, the 30 yard hook is realism on TGCTours it seems. I get what you’re saying, but it’s arcade video golf regardless of aids used or not. You use a joystick or mouse to make a pixelated ball fly through the air on a screen. But no matter the format, the player should face the challenges of the gameplay as intended by the designer. The Red Fast is cheesy sidestepping. There is a big difference between arcade golf and sim golf. I don't see many complaints about the unrealistic spin from a LW splash from heavy rough and HB designed the game that way. I totally agree with you with the fast hook tee shot. What annoys me most is that apperently everyone plays a 30 yard hook tee shot in real life now. That's not good ball striking and a draw shot does not finish 30 yards left or right of your target. That is bad ball striking in my book, a draw curves back to your intended target. The fast is an intentional hook shot and how much chance of finding a fairway irl is there from playing a shot like that, not a percentage shot even if it takes away the 2 way missed fairway. It is a cheap shot in this game and unrealisticly consistent too.
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Post by spikel on Dec 22, 2020 0:21:26 GMT -5
I get what you’re saying, but it’s arcade video golf regardless of aids used or not. You use a joystick or mouse to make a pixelated ball fly through the air on a screen. But no matter the format, the player should face the challenges of the gameplay as intended by the designer. The Red Fast is cheesy sidestepping. There is a big difference between arcade golf and sim golf. I don't see many complaints about the unrealistic spin from a LW splash from heavy rough and HB designed the game that way. I totally agree with you with the fast hook tee shot. What annoys me most is that apperently everyone plays a 30 yard hook tee shot in real life now. That's not good ball striking and a draw shot does not finish 30 yards left or right of your target. That is bad ball striking in my book, a draw curves back to your intended target. The fast is an intentional hook shot and how much chance of finding a fairway irl is there from playing a shot like that, not a percentage shot even if it takes away the 2 way missed fairway. It is a cheap shot in this game and unrealisticly consistent too. When I was younger I'd hit a big hook with a 3wood off the tee, I just would aim right by feel and it was pretty consistent.
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