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Post by virtualgolfer65 on Nov 1, 2020 18:05:44 GMT -5
I'm working on a links course and am designing the opening hole as a 3-shot par 5
Riveria has a bunker in the middle of the 6th hole and has been approved on as a TGC course. It hosted a True Sim tournament (Puerto Rico Open) in 2020.
Given that TGC tours discourage or ban chipping on greens, does that mean that designing a hole with a bunker in the middle of the green will prevent it from being tour approved?
I'm going forward with the design, but would love to know how other designers handle this issue. Also, are there other TGC courses that have a bunker in the middle of the green?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and help.
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Post by tpetro on Nov 1, 2020 20:48:28 GMT -5
The rule states that you can also chip if the line from the ball to the hole is obstructed by another surface. So if I'm on one side of the green and the pin's on the other, I'm allowed to chip over the bunker. No approval issues there.
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Post by rob4590 on Nov 2, 2020 3:13:18 GMT -5
I'm working on a links course and am designing the opening hole as a 3-shot par 5 Riveria has a bunker in the middle of the 6th hole and has been approved on as a TGC course. It hosted a True Sim tournament (Puerto Rico Open) in 2020. Given that TGC tours discourage or ban chipping on greens, does that mean that designing a hole with a bunker in the middle of the green will prevent it from being tour approved? I'm going forward with the design, but would love to know how other designers handle this issue. Also, are there other TGC courses that have a bunker in the middle of the green? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and help.
Another one of the official ones does - think it's TPC San Antonio (16th?)
My TGC19 fictional course - Blackheart Cove - had a bunker in the middle of the 14th hole - and hosted a PGA (Platinum) event........(but I haven't ported it over to 21 yet)
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Post by b101 on Nov 2, 2020 7:38:36 GMT -5
As ever with quirky features, it’s definitely not a reason for the course not to be approved on its own, but does need to be handled with care. Giant bunker with only about 5 grid squares on all sides on a 200 yard par three, for example, would have me questioning it.
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Post by rob4590 on Nov 2, 2020 12:08:38 GMT -5
As ever with quirky features, it’s definitely not a reason for the course not to be approved on its own, but does need to be handled with care. Giant bunker with only about 5 grid squares on all sides on a 200 yard par three, for example, would have me questioning it.
So you're saying the 6th at Riviera is questionable therefore then Ben?
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Post by b101 on Nov 2, 2020 12:39:57 GMT -5
As ever with quirky features, it’s definitely not a reason for the course not to be approved on its own, but does need to be handled with care. Giant bunker with only about 5 grid squares on all sides on a 200 yard par three, for example, would have me questioning it.
So you're saying the 6th at Riviera is questionable therefore then Ben? Ha. I'll be honest, I don't love it, but... it is handled with care. There's ways to use slopes to get the putt to the hole, there's enough room between the bunker and the edges of the greens and it's relatively rare that a good player will stymie themselves by missing that badly. If they do, then they deserve the punishment. I guess what I'm getting at is that the scales and slopes at Riv are in proportion to the rest of the hole. It's not to my personal taste - a bit gimmicky - but I think it works.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Nov 2, 2020 13:05:53 GMT -5
I did one on my Alamiss Village (#16 iirc) that came out nicely, imoho.
It's on a risky reachable Par 5, where going for it in 2 brings it in play, since it would be a hot 3 or 4 wood coming off a slope & hard to be sure of the roll, but laying up means a player will almost certainly be on the right side of it for the pin.
That's if you're looking for another example. Fwiw, I don't try for 'tour worthy', triples how long a course takes. A solid 18 that feels 'real' works for me ... 'muni-level' polish, ya know.
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Post by b101 on Nov 2, 2020 13:14:32 GMT -5
Fwiw, I don't try for 'tour worthy', triples how long a course takes. A solid 18 that feels 'real' works for me ... 'muni-level' polish, ya know. Bit of an aside, but I have to point out that this take is wrong - the course just all has to be done very well. I've seen excellent minimalist courses taking under 20 hours that are Tour Worthy and courses that people have spent hundreds of hours on be Approved or Not Approved. Time =/= Tour Worthy. By all means do what you want, not questioning that, but it's not a time thing.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Nov 2, 2020 15:36:47 GMT -5
I was speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF, Mr B, mainly as a disclaimer for the quality of my own designs, NOT in the form of advising anyone else. In case you didn't 'get' the sentence's intent.
I (ME, Bob, myself) just don't shoot for 'tour worthy', as it DOES take ME a lot more time to pick at the details ... every course is what it is, and someone seeing me suggest a hole at Alamiss as worth checking out might think I was touting it as such.
And I am definitely NOT.
But feel free to tell me MY way of thinking is wrong for ME, that kind of support is ALWAYS appreciated !
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Nov 2, 2020 15:38:58 GMT -5
And, admittedly, it's not like EVERY course we play on the Challenge Circuits is "all that", anyway.
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Post by virtualgolfer65 on Nov 2, 2020 16:11:25 GMT -5
Great to hear all the replies and thank you for taking the time to do so.
Good to know about the bunker in the middle of the green, but agree that it needs to be handled with care and used for strategy and not to cheapen the hole.
As a side note, I started playing when I was 9, so it's been 49 years of playing throughout the U.S. and world. Was a Division I golfer and played on many of the top courses in the world, but I love the unique creations that people have recreated (real life) or created (fictional) in the game. I didn't play TGC, so I missed the designer there, but love it in 2K21, and it's got my creative juices flowing.
Thank you to b101, CrazyCanuck1985, Jerry Shields and all who have created the vast number of resources for new designers, as well as the online forums and contests here. I find myself playing the game, but continually being drawn to the designer and bringing to life the courses that have been in my mind for decades.
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Post by b101 on Nov 2, 2020 16:19:08 GMT -5
I was speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF, Mr B, mainly as a disclaimer for the quality of my own designs, NOT in the form of advising anyone else. In case you didn't 'get' the sentence's intent. I (ME, Bob, myself) just don't shoot for 'tour worthy', as it DOES take ME a lot more time to pick at the details ... every course is what it is, and someone seeing me suggest a hole at Alamiss as worth checking out might think I was touting it as such. And I am definitely NOT. But feel free to tell me MY way of thinking is wrong for ME, that kind of support is ALWAYS appreciated ! Yeah, if you read the post, you say 'it triples how long a course takes'. You'll also see that I say you design in a way that suits you. Interpret how you want, but I want to be clear as a reviewer what is required for tour worthy. It's nothing to do with hours. Not commenting on any of your designs with that either. You've taken an insult where there isn't one. I'm merely clarifying something that you've said which could be taken as you stating a fact, which is in fact incorrect.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Nov 2, 2020 17:36:38 GMT -5
Whatever you say, boss !! It's factually correct for me ... if I start TRYING to create a tour-worthy creation (did once, got rejected even for the database. and I'm oh-for-six on the ones that DID even get accepted) I'll take about 3 times as long as if if I just try to create a GOOD golf course for people to have a round on.
Why that statement by a second-rate course creator like myself, in a thread about bunkers in greens, grabbed your attention as worthy of "debunking" in the first place is kind of amusing. I personally gave forum readers enough credit to figure out I was speaking my opinion based on my experience. Looks like I misjudged some forum members ...
FWIW, MOST course designers in the world have probably never heard of "TGCTours", considering we have about 4,000 members, many who don't design, and I'm sure the game's customer base in easily in the 10,000 to 20,000 range. Do the tours only play member-created or the official courses, or would we ever play a great one that a member just 'stumbles upon' and suggests ?
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Post by tpetro on Nov 2, 2020 17:44:18 GMT -5
Do the tours only play member-created or the official courses, or would we ever play a great one that a member just 'stumbles upon' and suggests ? Courses need to be in the database to be on tour, so this is a difficult proposition. However, there's an interesting crossover with newer designers: some know only of the database and not the forums, and some vice versa. I knew about the database well before the forums and one course of mine had a thread created for it by Wes before I had ever stepped foot in here, and that course eventually made it onto PGA last year. So it's definitely possible provided database status.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Nov 2, 2020 19:37:03 GMT -5
But can I (for example) submit somebody else's course for the database, or would you guys need their permission, I suppose ?
Apologies to the O.P. for straying from the bunker topic !! Done now ...
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