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Post by SteelVike on Oct 31, 2020 9:06:41 GMT -5
Hello all, I often hear reviewers and designers mention to try and mix up pin positions so you don't end up with a bunch of pins in the same position. Example being four front pins in a row for day 1. Here is the method I use to ensure that the pin positions are evenly distributed for each day. The right or left position of the pin can be up to the designer, but that aspect is usually dictated by the slopes in the greens. For day 4 pins, I typically put most of the holes in the toughest positions possible and try to have a couple easier ones sprinkled in there to allow for scoring opportunities all while trying to have 6 pins at each depth. Below is a table I use for the first 3 days. Hope this is helpful and happy designing!
(Hole / Day 1 / Day 2 / Day 3) 1: FMB 2: MBF 3: BFM 4: FMB 5: MBF 6: BFM 7: FMB 8: MBF 9: BFM 10: FMB 11: MBF 12: BFM 13: FMB 14: MBF 15: BFM 16: FMB 17: MBF 18: BFM
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Post by Violinguy69 on Oct 31, 2020 9:58:12 GMT -5
I seem to recall a method the actual PGA tour used - they split the holes into four groups from easiest to most difficult. On day one, the easiest pins were on the hardest holes. On day four, the toughest pins were on the toughest holes. I might be mis-remembering, but it sounds like a good system. For my courses, I just rotate the pins as I go. One through four on the first four holes and onward til the end. If I have a specific spot I want pin 4, I'll interrupt my rotation.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Oct 31, 2020 10:10:02 GMT -5
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Post by SteelVike on Oct 31, 2020 10:13:42 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is trying not to have the same depth on the same day for the par 5's and 3's. If hole 1 and 4 are both par 5, they would both have back pins on day 3 with this method, when you should probably mix them up and have one be front and the other back. If this is the case you can change the FMB order to mix it up a bit. Example: FMB MFB FMB MFB...etc.
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Post by paddyjk19 on Oct 31, 2020 12:01:55 GMT -5
I don’t think this needs over thinking
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Oct 31, 2020 12:16:26 GMT -5
I don’t think this needs over thinking On the contrary, I think it's easy to under think this. For replayablity and tour usage, a good variety and well thought out pin positions is a plus.
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Post by SteelVike on Oct 31, 2020 12:21:12 GMT -5
I don’t think this needs over thinking On the contrary, I think it's easy to under think this. For replayablity and tour usage, a good variety and well thought out pin positions is a plus. Yes, what 15eicheltower9 said. Some people may not notice these types of detail, but some people including rangers and reviewers will notice, especially for courses that are being considered for use on tour.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Oct 31, 2020 12:32:23 GMT -5
On the contrary, I think it's easy to under think this. For replayablity and tour usage, a good variety and well thought out pin positions is a plus. Yes, what 15eicheltower9 said. Some people may not notice these types of detail, but some people including rangers and reviewers will notice, especially for courses that are being considered for use on tour. I don't think a reviewer, ranger, or scheduler would notice honestly. I can't imagine any of them would play all 4 pins of every course. There's only so many hours in a day that can be volunteered. But trust me, if a course gets played in a society or on tour, people notice. "Its the same pin as yesterday just 20 ft to the right. That's not even creative" was an actual and fair critique of just one hole on one course I had on tour. I think it's best to take care and present your course in the best way possible.
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Post by paddyjk19 on Oct 31, 2020 13:06:38 GMT -5
I don’t think this needs over thinking On the contrary, I think it's easy to under think this. For replayablity and tour usage, a good variety and well thought out pin positions is a plus. I probably underplayed my initial response, let me have another go; I don't think this needs a complicated system or even a pattern to follow, just a bit of common sense and a bit of designer preference. First and foremost I think it's absolutely vital someone understands what's a legitimate pin position and what's not, make sure if you are putting a pin up on top of a shelf, don't put it right on the edge, give the golfer a chance to land between the pin and the shelf, if the approach is from a long par 4 maybe don't tuck it right behind the front bunker every day, give the golfer a chance to score on one of the days. Decide early on which pins are your "show stopper" pins, doesn't mean the hard pins, just the interesting pins, could be at the bottom of a slope or a natural collection area, could be hanging off the edge near a cliff!. these are the ones I maybe keep these for the final round or round 3 to create some drama. Maybe you want to spread them out a little over each round - completely at the discretion of the designer
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Oct 31, 2020 15:14:05 GMT -5
paddyjk19 I would suggest if you have certain pins that you think showcase your hole and the way you want it to play that you put them in first round (or second at the latest). Not everyone makes it to rounds 3 and 4. Also pin 1 is generally the most common played in casual rounds. That being said, with the tools at our disposal I'd also suggest making 4 unique and thought provoking pins on each hole. Some of the most fun I have designing is sculpting greens and finding pins that play fairly, challenging and different from day to day.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Oct 31, 2020 17:16:51 GMT -5
Yes, what 15eicheltower9 said. Some people may not notice these types of detail, but some people including rangers and reviewers will notice, especially for courses that are being considered for use on tour. I don't think a reviewer, ranger, or scheduler would notice honestly. I can't imagine any of them would play all 4 pins of every course. There's only so many hours in a day that can be volunteered. But trust me, if a course gets played in a society or on tour, people notice. "Its the same pin as yesterday just 20 ft to the right. That's not even creative" was an actual and fair critique of just one hole on one course I had on tour. I think it's best to take care and present your course in the best way possible. Honestly, as a ranger and contest judge, I always notice when, say, I play pin 4 and it's always tucked in the back, or I play pin 1 and it's always in the middle or front. It's a misconception with some designers that pin 4 always has to be the hard one or pin 1 always has to be the easy one. I can see something like this separating two courses in contests for sure.
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Post by b101 on Nov 1, 2020 3:13:17 GMT -5
On the contrary, I think it's easy to under think this. For replayablity and tour usage, a good variety and well thought out pin positions is a plus. I probably underplayed my initial response, let me have another go; I don't think this needs a complicated system or even a pattern to follow, just a bit of common sense and a bit of designer preference. First and foremost I think it's absolutely vital someone understands what's a legitimate pin position and what's not, make sure if you are putting a pin up on top of a shelf, don't put it right on the edge, give the golfer a chance to land between the pin and the shelf, if the approach is from a long par 4 maybe don't tuck it right behind the front bunker every day, give the golfer a chance to score on one of the days. Decide early on which pins are your "show stopper" pins, doesn't mean the hard pins, just the interesting pins, could be at the bottom of a slope or a natural collection area, could be hanging off the edge near a cliff!. these are the ones I maybe keep these for the final round or round 3 to create some drama. Maybe you want to spread them out a little over each round - completely at the discretion of the designer There’s far more to it than that in terms of where you place pins though - you cannot think of each hole in isolation. Have you considered all your par threes as a group? Your long fours? Wind direction affecting approaches? Have you checked whether pin 4 is repeatedly at the back or tucked behind a hazard? Have you ensured each pinset has some easy pins and tough ones? Bear in mind schedulers will set wind independently, so if your pin four is universally tough AND met with high winds, it’ll be a car crash. I think variety of pins makes a huge difference. You may not notice it consciously when the designer has really thought it through but you damn sure do when they haven’t. Edit: disagree with some of your comments of what a legitimate pin is - it’s fine to tuck one behind a bunker or place on a top shelf, but it must be fair with regard to the approach (which I think you’re alluding to) and balanced. Balance is key - you cannot pull the same trick multiple times.
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Post by csugolfer60 on Nov 1, 2020 7:51:32 GMT -5
I will disagree with some that has been said, at least in how it pertains to tournament golf -
72 challenging pins is what you should be aiming for. The key is what challenge you are asking of the player.
For example -
Pin 1 - A high cut, over and around a deep bunker that is front right of the green, to a pin 4 paces behind it. Leaving the ball long left, in the fat of the green is preferred. Pin 2 - A back left pin, pinched between a bunker left and a diagonal slope to the back right that runs off the back of the green, daring the player to hit a low, skidding draw into it, without running the ball too far. Pin 3 - Not particularly tucked, but on top of a "mounded tier". Leaving the ball short by 10 feet will cause it to come back another 6 or 7 feet. A high, soft shot just past the hole is the best play. Pin 4 - Perched 3 paces over a false front on the front left. Anything short rolls back 15 yards to a large collection area.
This is a fictional green, but you can probably picture all 4 of these pins and probably the green itself to some degree. All 4 are challenging, and none are easy, but all 4 require a different approach.
"Easy pins" should not exist in tournament golf - even for a pin that is attackable, there should be an equal and opposite penalty for a poor play. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make a birdie with a well struck shot and a good putt, but the player should have to accurately judge wind/elevation/roll/bounce, leave the proper putt, and there should be a significant penalty for being too aggressive or being lazy in their thought process.
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Post by b101 on Nov 1, 2020 8:00:09 GMT -5
I will disagree with some that has been said, at least in how it pertains to tournament golf - 72 challenging pins is what you should be aiming for. The key is what challenge you are asking of the player. For example - Pin 1 - A high cut, over and around a deep bunker that is front right of the green, to a pin 4 paces behind it. Leaving the ball long left, in the fat of the green is preferred. Pin 2 - A back left pin, pinched between a bunker left and a diagonal slope to the back right that runs off the back of the green, daring the player to hit a low, skidding draw into it, without running the ball too far. Pin 3 - Not particularly tucked, but on top of a "mounded tier". Leaving the ball short by 10 feet will cause it to come back another 6 or 7 feet. A high, soft shot just past the hole is the best play. Pin 4 - Perched 3 paces over a false front on the front left. Anything short rolls back 15 yards to a large collection area. This is a fictional green, but you can probably picture all 4 of these pins and probably the green itself to some degree. All 4 are challenging, and none are easy, but all 4 require a different approach. "Easy pins" should not exist in tournament golf - even for a pin that is attackable, there should be an equal and opposite penalty for a poor play. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make a birdie with a well struck shot and a good putt, but the player should have to accurately judge wind/elevation/roll/bounce, leave the proper putt, and there should be a significant penalty for being too aggressive or being lazy in their thought process. Totally defer to you on IRL tournament stuff. But in terms of the game, IMO, this depends totally on the approach shot you're asking and the level you're targeting. For a major? Sure. For CC-G week 11? Not so much. I'm not advocating dead flat by any means - you know my greens - but there have to be helping slopes as well as those that run the ball away or deflect it. I'm all for the different types of approach shot - a nice concept to introduce here, for sure, but it's so totally approach-dependent. For example, I'd argue that for a 500 yard par four, the only one of those pins that's acceptable is pin 3. You can be punchy every once in a while, but those four pins on that type of hole would be one of the least fun events I've ever played.
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Post by rob4590 on Nov 1, 2020 8:04:01 GMT -5
Also to add: it's been mentioned about 6 front, 6 middle, 6 back (where possible) in a round - you should also try (where possible) to have 6/6/6 left/centre/right pins (or at least a balance between R+L) - so the sets don't favour a player who moves the ball one specific way.
The other thing that the tournament director in real life has to consider is walk off routes - you don't want a pin in an early round which then means that all 150 players, 150 caddies etc all walk off over a section of green that you want a pin to be sited on later in the event. Obviously irrelevant for video golf - but it's a real life consideration...
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