Green Speed and slopes?

[Koop]

So I do not recall this happening in 2019 so please help me to understand this.....

This is a green @ med. fast speed



This is the same green on Very fast



If you start at the box that the pin is located in and count going toward the bottom of the picture you count to 8 boxes to get to red on the med. fast green speed and 6 boxes to get to red on the very fast green speed.  Same green, same pin location, different speed.  This could really mess up your pins in terms of legal pin location.   So, do you design with it set @ very fast so your greens are playable at very fast?

Call me crazy, call me an a-hole, call me whatever colorful adjective you like, this seems different than 2019 and it may have been pointed out before, so sorry about that.  Just thought it interesting and if some weren't aware now you are.  :-)

[csugolfer60]

This was the same in 2019, but it was less noticeable because we didn’t have full green grids.

My advice would be to always design on the fastest speed, and make sure at least the 4 pins are (barely) legal, but then dial it down to the speed you intend to play it at.

[ErixonStone]

Oct 22, 2020 9:54:53 GMT -5 csugolfer60 said:

My advice would be to always design on the fastest speed, and make sure at least the 4 pins are (barely) legal, but then dial it down to the speed you intend to play it at.

I will modify this advice slightly. Increase the green speed to the next-highest discrete option (Slow-119, Moderate-144, Fast-163, Very Fast-187) from the speed you intend the course to play at. In other words, if you're planning to publish at 155 speeds, go to 163 and test. If you plan to publish at 133, then go to 144 and test.

[Koop]

Oct 22, 2020 10:50:34 GMT -5 ErixonStone said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:54:53 GMT -5 csugolfer60 said:

My advice would be to always design on the fastest speed, and make sure at least the 4 pins are (barely) legal, but then dial it down to the speed you intend to play it at.

I will modify this advice slightly. Increase the green speed to the next-highest discrete option (Slow-119, Moderate-144, Fast-163, Very Fast-187) from the speed you intend the course to play at. In other words, if you're planning to publish at 155 speeds, go to 163 and test. If you plan to publish at 133, then go to 144 and test.

if you do that and someone decides to play @ 187 then your pins will be illegal, right?

[ErixonStone]

Oct 22, 2020 10:56:18 GMT -5 Koop said:

if you do that and someone decides to play @ 187 then your pins will be illegal, right?

Schedulers' problem. Not the designer's problem.

[Koop]

Oct 22, 2020 11:07:43 GMT -5 ErixonStone said:

Oct 22, 2020 10:56:18 GMT -5 Koop said:

if you do that and someone decides to play @ 187 then your pins will be illegal, right?

Schedulers' problem. Not the designer's problem.

Roger that!  LOL!

[b101]

Oct 22, 2020 9:54:53 GMT -5 csugolfer60 said:

My advice would be to always design on the fastest speed, and make sure at least the 4 pins are (barely) legal, but then dial it down to the speed you intend to play it at.

CSU in a nutshell right there. In his case, default speed is 187. Love it.

[Deleted]

I tend to publish all of my courses around the 174 mark, so I always do what Dario suggested, however, that means I'm doing essentially what Patrick suggested, which is a fair point. I can remember one of my favorite courses ever (El Pistolero), being published at something in the 140s and it played amazingly even at that speed, so there's no doubt at 187s it would've been a sea of red, so fair point to that aspect Koop, but I think as designers we have to hold to our convictions as to what the course was "meant" for, and if people in the general public pump it up to 187 that's on them. The rangers should be helping the schedulers with that as well, plus we have great TGCT schedulers on all tours, and most of them have been asking the designers for optimal conditions, which will likely help to avoid the most egregious of green speeds.

One last note I'll say is that Doyley has eliminated the 9 box rule due to the rainbow color grid we now have in 2K21 (it's basically up to the rangers to decide if a pin is playable or unfair). As you've correctly pointed out above, it's nearly impossible to keep a pin outside of trouble at 187s on a green that is anything but dead flat (and who wants to play flat greens?). If you want to be really safe, design at 187s and just make sure that the square the pin resides in is all green, not all 9 boxes, because that would essentially ensure that you'll have plenty of space around the flag at lower speeds.

Hope that helps.

[csugolfer60]

Oct 22, 2020 11:22:43 GMT -5 b101 said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:54:53 GMT -5 csugolfer60 said:

My advice would be to always design on the fastest speed, and make sure at least the 4 pins are (barely) legal, but then dial it down to the speed you intend to play it at.

CSU in a nutshell right there. In his case, default speed is 187. Love it.

[csugolfer60]

Oct 22, 2020 11:32:29 GMT -5 VctryLnSprts said:

I tend to publish all of my courses around the 174 mark, so I always do what Dario suggested, however, that means I'm doing essentially what Patrick suggested, which is a fair point. I can remember one of my favorite courses ever (El Pistolero), being published at something in the 140s and it played amazingly even at that speed, so there's no doubt at 187s it would've been a sea of red, so fair point to that aspect Koop, but I think as designers we have to hold to our convictions as to what the course was "meant" for, and if people in the general public pump it up to 187 that's on them. The rangers should be helping the schedulers with that as well, plus we have great TGCT schedulers on all tours, and most of them have been asking the designers for optimal conditions, which will likely help to avoid the most egregious of green speeds.

One last note I'll say is that Doyley has eliminated the 9 box rule due to the rainbow color grid we now have in 2K21 (it's basically up to the rangers to decide if a pin is playable or unfair). As you've correctly pointed out above, it's nearly impossible to keep a pin outside of trouble at 187s on a green that is anything but dead flat (and who wants to play flat greens?). If you want to be really safe, design at 187s and just make sure that the square the pin resides in is all green, not all 9 boxes, because that would essentially ensure that you'll have plenty of space around the flag at lower speeds.

Hope that helps.

Also, to add to what VctryLnSprts said - yellow and orange are perfectly good on greens, but keep them in context.

A pin that is on the side of a green rolling away from the center and towards the edge should probably be more flat than a pin that rolls inward toward the center of the green. Safer shots will putt up a steep slope, and that's much better on fast greens that having the majority of well played shots have a downhill slider towards the rough.

I tend to make sure that almost every pin has some sort of movement, not to just make it tough, but also to make the green a living thing, so every small part of the green is always rolling toward or away from something else. And it also helps to make sure that at least one side of the pin is preferred over others to putt from, which adds a lot of strategy with very little effort.

[csugolfer60]

A couple of my greens on 187s from upcoming design. There are a lot of pin positions available even on the fastest speed, but also a lot of movement. Importantly, though - there is very little "solid red" space that a ball will not stop under any circumstances. Movement is good - makes your greens much more strategic, but there is a fine line to make sure that all putts are at least stoppable to most pins.

If you take the green speeds down, these will become much easier, but they won't be unplayable on any higher speed.

[paddyjk19]

Oct 22, 2020 11:32:29 GMT -5 VctryLnSprts said:

I tend to publish all of my courses around the 174 mark, so I always do what Dario suggested, however, that means I'm doing essentially what Patrick suggested, which is a fair point. I can remember one of my favorite courses ever (El Pistolero), being published at something in the 140s and it played amazingly even at that speed, so there's no doubt at 187s it would've been a sea of red, so fair point to that aspect Koop, but I think as designers we have to hold to our convictions as to what the course was "meant" for, and if people in the general public pump it up to 187 that's on them. The rangers should be helping the schedulers with that as well, plus we have great TGCT schedulers on all tours, and most of them have been asking the designers for optimal conditions, which will likely help to avoid the most egregious of green speeds.

One last note I'll say is that Doyley has eliminated the 9 box rule due to the rainbow color grid we now have in 2K21 (it's basically up to the rangers to decide if a pin is playable or unfair). As you've correctly pointed out above, it's nearly impossible to keep a pin outside of trouble at 187s on a green that is anything but dead flat (and who wants to play flat greens?). If you want to be really safe, design at 187s and just make sure that the square the pin resides in is all green, not all 9 boxes, because that would essentially ensure that you'll have plenty of space around the flag at lower speeds.

Hope that helps.

I agree completely, I think it's also important for designers not to get too caught up with super fast greens, IRL lots of the classic courses were designed for longer grass in the early 1900's and these slopes just can't work at 187 speed in this game.
I'm doing Brookline currently and turned up to 187 whilst designing and I sh%$ you not, 3 greens were all orange and red! I will not be releasing this course with glass greens, it'll be 144 with a warning to schedulers!

[csugolfer60]

Oct 22, 2020 11:52:28 GMT -5 paddyjk19 said:

Oct 22, 2020 11:32:29 GMT -5 VctryLnSprts said:

I tend to publish all of my courses around the 174 mark, so I always do what Dario suggested, however, that means I'm doing essentially what Patrick suggested, which is a fair point. I can remember one of my favorite courses ever (El Pistolero), being published at something in the 140s and it played amazingly even at that speed, so there's no doubt at 187s it would've been a sea of red, so fair point to that aspect Koop, but I think as designers we have to hold to our convictions as to what the course was "meant" for, and if people in the general public pump it up to 187 that's on them. The rangers should be helping the schedulers with that as well, plus we have great TGCT schedulers on all tours, and most of them have been asking the designers for optimal conditions, which will likely help to avoid the most egregious of green speeds.

One last note I'll say is that Doyley has eliminated the 9 box rule due to the rainbow color grid we now have in 2K21 (it's basically up to the rangers to decide if a pin is playable or unfair). As you've correctly pointed out above, it's nearly impossible to keep a pin outside of trouble at 187s on a green that is anything but dead flat (and who wants to play flat greens?). If you want to be really safe, design at 187s and just make sure that the square the pin resides in is all green, not all 9 boxes, because that would essentially ensure that you'll have plenty of space around the flag at lower speeds.

Hope that helps.

I agree completely, I think it's also important for designers not to get too caught up with super fast greens, IRL lots of the classic courses were designed for longer grass in the early 1900's and these slopes just can't work at 187 speed in this game.
I'm doing Brookline currently and turned up to 187 whilst designing and I sh%$ you not, 3 greens were all orange and red! I will not be releasing this course with glass greens, it'll be 144 with a warning to schedulers!

I agree that the playability of these greens is was not designed for fast greens. However - I have to tell you that, as someone who has played a decent number of USGA championships (quite poorly), that the USGA will take those greens and push them until the entire green is orange and yellow IRL, and then play 4 days on them.

So as VctryLnSprts said, it depends on how you are intending the course to play - tournament golf, orange and yellow are perfectly fine and actually to be expected when better players play, but for regular and recreational play, you'll want to dial down the speed.

[Deleted]

Red is the predominant color on the greens of the course I'm designing right now. ;-)

[Koop]

Thank you all for your input.  It may help the casual designer like me that might make 1 or two courses a year.  All the info helps everyone.  Thanks again!