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The Lido
Sept 14, 2020 11:08:35 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by andrew1971 on Sept 14, 2020 11:08:35 GMT -5
Yes, tried it.
Will try again later.
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Post by superace33 on Sept 14, 2020 11:47:51 GMT -5
I played this last week and it was great! I’ve read about the Lido and try to follow the annual design competition. This course is so good, I’m excited to see the finish product.
I played the back tees and a couple of the par 4’s were brutally long into about 10-15 mph winds.. I believe it was 18 where I had no chance at all to make the green in 2. Other than that it was very fun, the par 3’s are special for sure.
Good luck with the rest of the build!
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 14, 2020 17:19:42 GMT -5
I played this last week and it was great! I’ve read about the Lido and try to follow the annual design competition. This course is so good, I’m excited to see the finish product. I played the back tees and a couple of the par 4’s were brutally long into about 10-15 mph winds.. I believe it was 18 where I had no chance at all to make the green in 2. Other than that it was very fun, the par 3’s are special for sure. Good luck with the rest of the build! 18 played into the prevailing wind and has the 3 prongs to choose from on your tee shot. The middle path was supposed to be the gamble and would lead to the easiest and shortest approach. Into a stiff breeze, most players would not go for it. The right prong was a safer route into the wind, but then the approach would be from a difficult angle and over bunkers. I'd say that it was a par 4.5 with this option. The left prong was the absolute safest off of the tee, but it almost guaranteed that the hole would play as a par 5. There is a very famous account of Bobby Jones taking the middle path into the wind and then hitting his brassie (2-wood) to within 3 feet of the pin. He made the putt to win the tournament by 1 stroke. On the 10th hole, CBM thought that a proper Alps hole should require a wood shot in for the approach. Even these back tees don't do it justice. The 12th hole is another ball buster and was supposed to be approached with a driving iron (1-iron equivalent). Keep in mind that this was designed in 1914. So, by the time that it reached full popularity in the 20s and then the 30s, the technology changed drastically and allowed for players to shoot in the 60s. But as designed, it was a very severe test. From the tips here, I tried to keep the character of holes like 10, 12, and 18 in terms of the decision making that you have to do as a player. I may create another set of tees in between the actual course's tees and the tips that I installed to create an intermediate challenge.
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The Lido
Sept 15, 2020 0:40:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by andrew1971 on Sept 15, 2020 0:40:21 GMT -5
I found it. Shot +2.
Enjoyed it but need to play it again in stronger winds and slower greens.
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 15, 2020 12:29:24 GMT -5
These are some snippets from an article in 1926 regarding the 18th:
"Blind slugging off the tee won't get you much, though the brutal carries require the ability to get reasonable distance. You must place your tee shots scientifically in order to open up the most favorable line ot the green. Not a single bunker was built haphazardly. Each trap is located for a strategic reason. On few courses, therefore, is it so important to place one's drive with an eye to simplifying the second shot. He who risks most should reap the biggest reward, the designer has so contrived the topography of this hole that a drive which lands on plateau C (the middle route) automatically opens up the route to the green. By taking a chance, you can simplify your second shot.
A deep, treacherous ravine separates plateau A (left route) from the projecting plateaus B and C. A drive, aimed at the central objective, which fails to carry the stiff face of plateau C, will drop into this sandy ravine. We can think of few meaner places in which to discover one's ball. Once your pill buries itself in that miserable gully, you are lucky to reach the fairway haven ahead with the loss of only one stroke. The steep bank beyond is crowned with a cruel overhang, which catches a recovery that is not cleanly hit.
Even the fairways themselves present difficulties, since the turf is broken by miniature ridges, hillocks and hummocks. This unevenness of turf doesn't tend to make the second shot any easier. A brassie (2-wood) is usually required, since the prevailing wind from the ocean blows right into the teeth of the hapless golfer. This wind hazard is really what makes the 18th hole such a perplexing problem. Were there no wind to combat, the carry from the tee to the central plateau wouldn't be much of a trick."
Golf was definitely supposed to be hard back then. This course was really the ultimate match play course because of all the risk reward propositions.
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 15, 2020 12:34:57 GMT -5
Another passage about the wind in general on the course:
"When you fare forth in the morning a gentle zephyr may be blowing off shore. Suddenly the breeze may fresh to half a gale, simultaneously switching its direction so that it sweeps in from the sea. A hole that had been an easy mashie-niblick pitch is transformed as if by magic into a stiff midiron poke. The golfer who hopes to score well must be sensitive to these sudden changes. he must use his bean for something else than a hat rack. He must learn how to shift clubs to correspond with wind changes. Mere slugging will not avail. Strategy becomes essential. The value of every shot is changed."
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The Lido
Sept 15, 2020 17:23:41 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by paddyjk19 on Sept 15, 2020 17:23:41 GMT -5
Just played this, absolutely incredible - lovely layout and fun the plot your way around and your design work is detailed and clinical.
10/10 for me.
What have you got left to do before a full publish?
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Post by mvpmanatee on Sept 15, 2020 18:03:31 GMT -5
This looks amazing, can't wait! I have been waiting for this since I first got the game as I used to follow the Lido Competition every year and MacKenzie's Lido hole was always so outstanding to me.
There is talk in Long Island of a group of the top 1% getting together to purchase the land and rebuild the course. The land is now a school, hotels, houses, and has been estimated to cost in the ballpark of $200-300 million in just the land alone.
Not sure if many know but there is a Lido Golf Course today, down the road, designed by Robert Trent Jones, and has a copy of the MacKenzie hole, but everyone that I know who has played it says it's not even worth the $38 that it costs. They market as being from 1915, but RTJ would have been 9 years old, so obviously they are trying to pretend they are the original.
Sorry to steal the mic, just thought this is pretty cool golf history that is typically swept under the rug!
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 15, 2020 19:27:51 GMT -5
Just played this, absolutely incredible - lovely layout and fun the plot your way around and your design work is detailed and clinical. 10/10 for me. What have you got left to do before a full publish? In the short run, I will just comb over each hole one more time to try to nail the exact contours that were in the ground and double check all of the relative heights of things. After I'm done with that, I'll call it a final version and publish. I have a laundry list of little things that I have discovered are inaccurate in small ways. I'll probably also create one more tee set as a hybrid between the whites and blacks and mix the pins up a little. I figure that most players probably play set 1, so I should probably give it a few more interesting pins.
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 15, 2020 19:52:08 GMT -5
There is talk in Long Island of a group of the top 1% getting together to purchase the land and rebuild the course. The land is now a school, hotels, houses, and has been estimated to cost in the ballpark of $200-300 million in just the land alone. Not sure if many know but there is a Lido Golf Course today, down the road, designed by Robert Trent Jones, and has a copy of the MacKenzie hole, but everyone that I know who has played it says it's not even worth the $38 that it costs. They market as being from 1915, but RTJ would have been 9 years old, so obviously they are trying to pretend they are the original. Sorry to steal the mic, just thought this is pretty cool golf history that is typically swept under the rug! In terms of them recreating it on the original ground, there is no way that could ever happen, even if you had $1T. The hold-outs, the objections, the school, the public beach, the road through the middle with safety concerns, and on and on. I did cut and paste out all of the original Lido holes and found a way to route them on the RTJ site while keeping a lot of the interlocking holes next to each other. If anything were to be done out there, that would be a lot more practical. But even then, you wouldn't get the Atlantic ocean included, just the Channel and a marshy border. It is a shame that the RTJ version was not very good. People had terrible ideas about golf in the late 1940s and into the 50s (and through the 90s...). When they hired him, the thought was to rebuild the original, but they couldn't resolve the problem with the road- how to cross it and how to protect drivers. By that time, it went from a sleepy dirt road on the edge of civilization to something close to a highway. The new land had more water frontage and no bisecting road, so it seemed like a way better idea to them. The hole that RTJ sort of copied was the Channel Hole (the 4th at Lido). CBM got the idea for that hole from a hole at Littlestone, I believe the 16th, that is now lost as well. The Mackenzie hole was the 18th at Lido. It is a very interesting story overall. Reynold's was a mover and shaker and had some insane ambitions that caused some booms and busts in his life. And the original founders of the Lido were some of the biggest names in NYC. Here is a nice little write up on the 4th that has the club champion at the time describe the hole: And here is the last known photo taken of the course- also happens to be the 4th hole from the tee looking toward the right hand fairway. This was for a Life magazine piece on the top 18 holes in the country. This was right before the Navy took over the property. This is also the only color photo that I know of. By this time, you can see that the sandy look of the place was replaced by a greener look.
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Post by paddyjk19 on Sept 16, 2020 2:53:48 GMT -5
Just played this, absolutely incredible - lovely layout and fun the plot your way around and your design work is detailed and clinical. 10/10 for me. What have you got left to do before a full publish? In the short run, I will just comb over each hole one more time to try to nail the exact contours that were in the ground and double check all of the relative heights of things. After I'm done with that, I'll call it a final version and publish. I have a laundry list of little things that I have discovered are inaccurate in small ways. I'll probably also create one more tee set as a hybrid between the whites and blacks and mix the pins up a little. I figure that most players probably play set 1, so I should probably give it a few more interesting pins. Nice, you could do a seperate version as a tournament version where the tees are mixed up and greens ramped up. I’d also never notice if you did nothing else to it! The environment you’ve created is beautiful
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Post by mvpmanatee on Sept 16, 2020 8:03:42 GMT -5
There is talk in Long Island of a group of the top 1% getting together to purchase the land and rebuild the course. The land is now a school, hotels, houses, and has been estimated to cost in the ballpark of $200-300 million in just the land alone. Not sure if many know but there is a Lido Golf Course today, down the road, designed by Robert Trent Jones, and has a copy of the MacKenzie hole, but everyone that I know who has played it says it's not even worth the $38 that it costs. They market as being from 1915, but RTJ would have been 9 years old, so obviously they are trying to pretend they are the original. Sorry to steal the mic, just thought this is pretty cool golf history that is typically swept under the rug! In terms of them recreating it on the original ground, there is no way that could ever happen, even if you had $1T. The hold-outs, the objections, the school, the public beach, the road through the middle with safety concerns, and on and on. I did cut and paste out all of the original Lido holes and found a way to route them on the RTJ site while keeping a lot of the interlocking holes next to each other. If anything were to be done out there, that would be a lot more practical. But even then, you wouldn't get the Atlantic ocean included, just the Channel and a marshy border. It is a shame that the RTJ version was not very good. People had terrible ideas about golf in the late 1940s and into the 50s (and through the 90s...). When they hired him, the thought was to rebuild the original, but they couldn't resolve the problem with the road- how to cross it and how to protect drivers. By that time, it went from a sleepy dirt road on the edge of civilization to something close to a highway. The new land had more water frontage and no bisecting road, so it seemed like a way better idea to them. The hole that RTJ sort of copied was the Channel Hole (the 4th at Lido). CBM got the idea for that hole from a hole at Littlestone, I believe the 16th, that is now lost as well. The Mackenzie hole was the 18th at Lido. It is a very interesting story overall. Reynold's was a mover and shaker and had some insane ambitions that caused some booms and busts in his life. And the original founders of the Lido were some of the biggest names in NYC. Here is a nice little write up on the 4th that has the club champion at the time describe the hole: And here is the last known photo taken of the course- also happens to be the 4th hole from the tee looking toward the right hand fairway. This was for a Life magazine piece on the top 18 holes in the country. This was right before the Navy took over the property. This is also the only color photo that I know of. By this time, you can see that the sandy look of the place was replaced by a greener look. Ah interesting, I was always under the impression they just flipped MacKenzie's hole and used it as the 4th. The key feature of his hole was an island fairway that significantly shortened the approach shot, so I never thought twice. I see now looking at original routings that the 18th plays more like MacKenzie's, just without the island. Unfortunate that post WW2 golf completely ruined the course, and more unfortunate that this was a pretty recurring theme!
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Post by grovey31 on Sept 16, 2020 10:22:52 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the course on my playthrough over the weekend. The overall feel is awesome and the environment you created is very good and realistic. If I would say there was one thing I didn't love so much, it might be the very bright green fairway and rough textures. I love me some good contrast but it seemed just a bit too stark in this case. By no means am I telling you what to do though, you have a very firm grasp on your vision and the course looks great. My only feedback would be to play with the textures a little to see if there was a combination that gave it a slightly less vibrant green look and blended it with the natural surroundings a little more.
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 16, 2020 22:06:59 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the course on my playthrough over the weekend. The overall feel is awesome and the environment you created is very good and realistic. If I would say there was one thing I didn't love so much, it might be the very bright green fairway and rough textures. I love me some good contrast but it seemed just a bit too stark in this case. By no means am I telling you what to do though, you have a very firm grasp on your vision and the course looks great. My only feedback would be to play with the textures a little to see if there was a combination that gave it a slightly less vibrant green look and blended it with the natural surroundings a little more. I don't disagree with you. The original was more browned out than this. I'm just having trouble finding textures that look realistic. In TGC 2019, I used the Delta theme and tried to get a sandier look overall, but the 2K21 Delta is much splotchier with the rough and the buried trees. I'll see if I can find a balance in 2K21.
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Post by hickoryghost on Sept 16, 2020 22:14:26 GMT -5
Ah interesting, I was always under the impression they just flipped MacKenzie's hole and used it as the 4th. The key feature of his hole was an island fairway that significantly shortened the approach shot, so I never thought twice. I see now looking at original routings that the 18th plays more like MacKenzie's, just without the island. Unfortunate that post WW2 golf completely ruined the course, and more unfortunate that this was a pretty recurring theme! I can see why you would assume that. Here was Mackenzie's entry: Here was the hole that they built:
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