nifty1
Amateur Golfer
Letting me loose on the designer is like giving a gun to a monkey!!
Posts: 206
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Post by nifty1 on Sept 4, 2020 5:25:25 GMT -5
Hi all
Something I've always wondered is, do you have to play great to design great holes or courses?
I think in TGC2019 the answer to that would probably have been yes, as hitting master clubs well meant you could design holes that suited the best players.
Now with 2K21 it may not be such and issue as Am and Pro-am can hit just as far, if they've bought the best clubs in the game. The game offers the ability for great and average players to play the same holes competitively, which is great in my opinion.
Of course some knowledge of hole strategy is important for the build, something I don't have at the moment ... but trying to learn.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts
Cheers
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Post by ballysacorn4 on Sept 4, 2020 5:33:22 GMT -5
Wouldn't say you need to play great especially with the new tempo etc. But you definitely need to think about hazard placement and wider landing zones now. Its more about distances and allowance for the bad swings to either find trouble or just have a bad angle. Definitely need need to not be a hack and a bit of knowledge in design though
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Post by guitardude_324 on Sept 4, 2020 12:13:06 GMT -5
I know you're specifically asking about skill in the game. But, I just wanted to bring up a fun fact. Seth Raynor rarely played golf. I think he was a surveyor before Macdonald hired him. They built a ton of great courses together and Raynor has many great courses that he did solo.
No matter the skill, everyone is capable of building a great course.
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Post by Violinguy69 on Sept 4, 2020 16:00:51 GMT -5
Of course, no you don't need to be a top player to produce a top course.
BUT
Even if you think you designed a really tough course, the top players will violate it for low scores in ways you never thought of because you might not be an advanced player. It's happened to me plenty of times. I think that designers should be serviceable players in order to understand the shots required to design a course around. Example - if the designer doesn't know how to fade or draw, he might think certain trees on the course will prevent a good player from using, say, driver off the tee with a fade.
In this version of the designer though, not everyone hits it the same distance because of club choices, so there are far more variables.
TL;DR - No, but don't be shocked if the best players shoot 58 while playing with one hand.
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Post by b101 on Sept 5, 2020 8:55:04 GMT -5
100% no. I would actually argue the opposite - I’ve seen many a course designed by a PGA player that is too punitive and doesn’t offer bailouts because they personally wouldn’t ever need or consider them. The same was typically said of Nicklaus courses when he first started designing.
I’d also say that the PGA players are the least receptive to great courses, precisely because they challenge shots they want to hit but can’t. I remember reading of Mackenzie saying that if he wasn’t frustrating golfers, his hazards weren’t placed well enough. If I can design holes that punish the golfer who is frustrated when bombing driver perfectly down the middle every time isn’t the play, then I’m doing just fine.
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Post by bmckenzie69 on Sept 9, 2020 10:47:49 GMT -5
I think from the 2K21 perspective, playing the game great is not required to design a great course. Playing real golf great is also not required. However, I think in order to design a great course, a person needs an understanding of how to play. Being able to test play and hit it straight or with a fade or draw is also helpful, but when test playing you get to try it multiple times to get right. I sometimes hit the same tee shot six or eight times in a row trying to hit that little fade or draw to see how it makes the ball bounce and roll differently. If you play the game great it might save a little time, but is not required.
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Post by mctrees02 on Sept 9, 2020 11:43:51 GMT -5
100% no. I would actually argue the opposite - I’ve seen many a course designed by a PGA player that is too punitive and doesn’t offer bailouts because they personally wouldn’t ever need or consider them. The same was typically said of Nicklaus courses when he first started designing. I’d also say that the PGA players are the least receptive to great courses, precisely because they challenge shots they want to hit but can’t. I remember reading of Mackenzie saying that if he wasn’t frustrating golfers, his hazards weren’t placed well enough. If I can design holes that punish the golfer who is frustrated when bombing driver perfectly down the middle every time isn’t the play, then I’m doing just fine. The latest example of this is the centerline bunker on 12 at TPC Boston. Hanse brought in strategy alongside execution and the players hated it...so the tour removed it because god forbid the best golfers in the world have to make a decision AND follow up that decision with execution. The Fried Egg memorialized it well ---> 12th @ TPC Boston Centerline Bunker
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Post by mvpmanatee on Sept 9, 2020 11:54:07 GMT -5
Tom Doak is a 13.2 index according to GHIN. He builds courses better than everybody because he understands that he can't carry driver 290+ with consistency. He designs courses so that he makes it challenging for everybody, and therefore as enjoyable as possible.
However, this is just one approach to course design. Doak is not designing courses to host major championships, he is designing destination courses that people will travel all over the world for. If you are trying to design a course to host majors, allowing recovery shots and ideal angles of attack will 99% of the time be easier for pros than a bland, narrow design like Torrey Pines or Firestone.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you are a +2 handicap, or a 22 handicap, as long as you understand how everybody plays the game, you can build a course that suits the desires of all players. But if you want to host a tour event, less strategy usually wins. This is why I couldn't care less about most of the tour courses!
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Post by mctrees02 on Sept 9, 2020 12:56:10 GMT -5
One of the beauties of designing in 2k21 is that everybody will be able to hit their driver within a 15-20yd distance window of each other so a good designer can introduce strategic concepts into and out of each landing zone. In the real world, an architect has to account for players carrying their driver 150-300. They do most of this adjustment with staggered tee boxes but if they then ask for the next shot to be carried over water, many players will be miserable playing this course while the better players won't think twice about the shot.
The right balance (and it's what Doak, C&C, Hanse, etc are so good at) is building a hole/course where the high handicap player is able to get around without constant fear of losing their ball while presenting the low handicap/scratch/professional with enough variety that they are having to make decisions that may make them uncomfortable.
Doak regularly talks about his preference to design courses for match play rather than stroke play because most amateurs are out there playing games with their friends as opposed to seeing who can shoot the lowest score for 72 holes. We've seen this time and again when the professional tours present driveable par 4's and virtually every player lays up to the safest area to ensure that their second shot will give them a decent look at birdie so they aren't losing anything to the field. In match play however, players of every ability will stop and consider many variables about their match, opponent etc before deciding whether or not they want to take on a high risk tee shot to try and win the hole.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Sept 9, 2020 14:06:12 GMT -5
No
But in the current iteration of the game, it does help when playtesting, LOL. I find myself 'turning down' to 'Pro-Am' during all but the final phase of design & testing. The new unified distance for all players (well, potentially) makes hazard planning easier, TBH,
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Post by mvpmanatee on Sept 9, 2020 14:10:27 GMT -5
One of the beauties of designing in 2k21 is that everybody will be able to hit their driver within a 15-20yd distance window of each other so a good designer can introduce strategic concepts into and out of each landing zone. In the real world, an architect has to account for players carrying their driver 150-300. They do most of this adjustment with staggered tee boxes but if they then ask for the next shot to be carried over water, many players will be miserable playing this course while the better players won't think twice about the shot. To be fair I think a majority of designers in TGC2019 only cared for masters clubs, which was a 0 yard distance window.
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