nifty1
Amateur Golfer
Letting me loose on the designer is like giving a gun to a monkey!!
Posts: 206
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Post by nifty1 on Jul 28, 2020 4:04:36 GMT -5
Sorry ... looks like I got the quote command wrong there! ^^^
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Post by b101 on Jul 28, 2020 4:23:45 GMT -5
All this talk of parkland golf is very alluring. If only there were a contest coming up where you could go all out...
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Post by grovey31 on Jul 28, 2020 7:42:11 GMT -5
As much as I try to steer away from parkland style courses, I think a lot of good points have been made here. I especially agree with the comment about Bethpage. The bunkering style there really sets it apart from most courses in that particular category. The Black course also uses nice contrast between textures. They have bright green grass, bright white bunkers, and light brown fescue looking grasses.
I also agree with Ben about focusing on an interesting routing. A compact routing can take advantage of gives and takes on views of other holes where it gives you a look at something yet to be played that might peak your anticipation for later in the round. It's also a great way to utilize specifically interesting features of a given property. Mackenzie talks about this repeatedly in his books as a way to maximize the land that's in use. Shoreacres has its ravines and Pasatiempo has its barrancas just to name a couple.
Another way to make parkland style courses stand out is to really focus on the greens. I think the best example of this is Winged Foot. They may have some mildly ho hum tee shots and approaches but once you get to the greens... that's where the fun really begins. Large, undulating greens create tons of interest on what would otherwise be a fairly bland course.
I would still pick every course at Bandon and Streamsong over most parkland courses (other than Bethpage because it's freaking awesome) but that's my two cents when it comes to ways to make this style of course stand out a little more.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 10:08:35 GMT -5
My current one is up as a beta (Bobalooparkbeta) and all 4 pins are checked out, but it's not fully planted/plopped.
My 'meh' impressions when playing it are what prompted this post in the first place. If anyone has time for a quick 18 there, I'd love feedback. So far, I have only one TGCTer who I can reliably count on to just tell me what they like or don't (and not what HE'D do, he's respectful like that) before I publish. That was big help on Fleming & Long Lake, my best 2 designs so far, I think.
I've played dozens of in-game parkland courses, as they are often society choices - no way around them. East Lake, Murfhofen just the last 2 weeks. I've got a couple of dozen of them in my solo society as well, mainly because I (think) I need all HCP'd ones. (All my 'Majors' are on RCRs). I enjoy the rounds, but they never stick in my head for fifteen minutes afterwards. Like one of those songs that I would listen to on the radio, but never make an effort to buy the LP so I could hear it as often as I wanted to (am I dating myself here?).
I'll play a couple of the listed ones as my warmup for CC-Z play, thanks !
I've also got a few 'park' style courses out there, but definitely not up to TGCT standards (or even my own artistic ones), but I would be curious as to any feedback on if I made THEM enjoyable for the players in terms of routing/variety of holes. If you can ignore the fact I was still plopping fairways and unfamiliar with the 'second surface' or 'smooth/sharpen' options, maybe I can get some feedback on holes or areas I've done well.
I appreciate the efforts to explain how 'conformity to expectations' is important here, but unless you want me to get carried away pointing out the 'exceptions', don't overstress "the rules" of design. If I put together my favorite eighteen holes ever, many of them would have at least one 'exceptional' feature. Probably my favorite hole is Pebble #8 - can't possibly play driver from the tee (heck, even 3-wood is too much with a tailwind, and even a bailout 2nd is a forced water carry. But, damn, it's a great hole to play !! In fact 6-7-8 there is a stretch that is more enjoyable than Augusta's Amen Corner IMO. At least as a game version, couldn't possibly afford to play either of them.
Have great rounds all week, guys (and gals?) !
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 10:17:28 GMT -5
As for the greens, I hate to design a course that gives the putters who don't excel elsewhere a huge advantage over players who can drive well, play straight irons, and recover from trouble exceptionally - that last one is the most undertested aspects on too many courses, IMO.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 11:56:47 GMT -5
Architecture and art are the antithesis of each other. One requires function, one does not... One has an end user, one is a personal creation. Sure you can find gray, but if the architecture is lost... No longer a golf course? Addendum: Architecture requires rigor... Choices are not made on a whim. Design is all about process and understanding how the course can and will be used/interpreted? This is well put. Seriously, this is everything. I agree the phrase "sure you can find gray" IS everything, LOL.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 12:00:26 GMT -5
I think I have these down okay, plus keeping the Par 3s facing different directions for wind variance Limiting yourself to 35 yard wide fairways, few central hazards, no cliffs etc makes you have to really work on routing, hazard location, bunkering, exactly where you cut the fairway and subtlety of angles. By variety, think length of hole, dogleg right/left, whether you are encouraging outside or inside of dogleg, length of approach, type of green shape etc.
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Post by SkinniePost on Jul 28, 2020 12:13:29 GMT -5
Fazio fans are popping out of the woodwork?!?
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Post by mattf27 on Jul 28, 2020 12:36:12 GMT -5
Fazio fans are popping out of the woodwork?!? TannerBronson is a Fazio fan, just ask him.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jul 28, 2020 12:38:18 GMT -5
Fazio fans are popping out of the woodwork?!? TannerBronson is a Fazio fan, just ask him. Yeah, word has it, he's got FAZIO tattooed across his lower back.
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Post by TannerBronson on Jul 28, 2020 12:39:50 GMT -5
Fazio fans are popping out of the woodwork?!? TannerBronson is a Fazio fan, just ask him.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 13:55:59 GMT -5
For a minute I read this as 'Fabio' fans, LOL. That made no sense, of course.
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Post by grovey31 on Jul 28, 2020 17:14:40 GMT -5
I appreciate the efforts to explain how 'conformity to expectations' is important here, but unless you want me to get carried away pointing out the 'exceptions', don't overstress "the rules" of design. I don't recall anyone trying to push what your calling "conformity to expectations" or "rules" of design in this thread. I for one would like to see/hear the "exceptions" you're referring to though and the connection to certain posts or discussions. This comment just seems to be a very broad and general statement so I think a bit more clarity is required.
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Post by grovey31 on Jul 28, 2020 17:34:30 GMT -5
As for the greens, I hate to design a course that gives the putters who don't excel elsewhere a huge advantage over players who can drive well, play straight irons, and recover from trouble exceptionally - that last one is the most undertested aspects on too many courses, IMO. If those who putt well have an advantage over those who don't, isn't it also true that those who drive it well and hit their irons well have an advantage over those who don't? Every player has to play every hole and the beauty of golf is that no one player is the same. If you only rewarded one type of player, then there would only be on type of player and most likely, one type of golf course. This is not me trying to change your mind but it is me trying to offer up a different way to look at the importance of greens and how they can set an ideal course apart from a dull course. Alister MacKenzie has famously said that the most ideal golf holes can be played with only a putter. He also famously won a golf design contest with a hole that offered five different lines of play, each one specific to different overall skill levels, abilities, or length. His books and other writings always talk about how important it is to offer every level of golfer options to compete. Variety should always be the goal and that encompasses every aspect of a course.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 28, 2020 18:05:57 GMT -5
Since I asked a "how do you guys stay inspired" question here, there were nice responses that actually helped me, and I appreciate that. However, this 'conversation' doesn't exist in isolation, I've been jousting here & there with some nicely spirited members. No, it's not been as prevelant in this thread, except for this quote : "If several people give reasonable advice about strategy and how a hole/course actually plays... you might be better served by swallowing your pride and taking the advice." How is this not saying "we're right, listen to us" (a pride/ego filled statement in itself) ? Especially since I've never complained about not being "better served" (whatever that means here). My 2nd ever submission got accepted, so I don't have anything to complain about. And no-one said the other submission had any playability issues, just construction flaws (small rough between fwy & green, another apparent 'no-no', as it's too much to expect a player to account for it's 'unpredicability' in their stroke. LOL. As if "reasonable" wasn't subjective in & of itself. And it's not so much 'pride',as I'm not making claims about excellence of design on my part, or poor design on others'. And finally since you asked ... The easiest example Pebble Beach #8 to start - Taken the driver out of their hands on a par 4 ?!? "Heaven forbid" says the design community" #7 at Pebble is the dreaded 'Par 3 with more than 50 ft elevation drop'. A former home course of mine, Balcones Country Club. The 'bailout' you may see from overhead is not really that at all, and is far harder to hit than the green, as it's really just a retaining strip of VERY hard land to keep the pond in. (The green is pretty flat FWIW) www.google.com/maps/@30.440442,-97.7929985,172m/data=!3m1!1e3 It's 1st hole is a 'tree in the middle of the fairway' no-no. It was always fun to see the look on my guests faces when they teed it up there the first time. Also here in Austin, Hancock park, an 'exception' to the "don't start with a Par 3" rule (although it may NOT have always been the 1st hole since 1899) Lions Municipal's 5th is a dogleg that you can't get over to cut (which was someone else's beef, "I only can use 5-iron"), so to use driver or wood, you need to turn the ball about 45 degrees Many links courses violate the 'let the player see the driving hazards from the tee' or the "bunkers must have a low & high side". Anyway, you'd have had to be in on all my posts & responses to see all of these. I now owe you another play, of course ... Ethos is played, what would you suggest ? Give me your most 'interesting' design, if you feel one stands out, NOT your best looking or best for scoring. If you feel like one of mine, try Dormie City, and give me feedback.
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