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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 10:50:05 GMT -5
Thanks for letting me join in on the discussion, all. Different strokes for different folks, but what someone 'was taught' about a thing is not where one's thought process should end.
"First tee backed up" ? Maybe TOO MANY players being squeezed on the course ?? *This one reminds of people who offer 'more roads' as the holy grail of solutions to traffic problems, LOL, instead of 'less cars') And almost every golf course WILL at some point force a carry, club or shot onto the player from the tee. It's PART OF THE GAME, or at least it was.
So, while those may be 'standard talking points' from design school, they are pretty easily shown to have enough exceptions as to not be 'rules' at all. Since you guys are the "law" about what courses make the grade, it would be remiss of me not to bring it up - politely, of course, if persistently.
Gotta get back to design, and at even after 2 on my CC-Z, I really oughta be practicing instead of kibitzing, LOL. Peace & love from 'the ATX' !
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Post by b101 on Jul 22, 2020 10:58:10 GMT -5
What if I'm most comfortable hitting a nice 5-iron, just like I might when starting my day at the range ? If the opener is a 550yd par5, with a 220 yd carry to fairway, then all but 2 clubs are 'taken away'. I know, I'm a bit of a freak, lol. Then in which case you're praying that opening par three is a perfect five iron At least with the par four or five, you have the option. I have as much of an issue with opening par fours or fives that have a big forced carry - it's less of an issue in TGC, but I'd want your five iron to be in play on any opening hole. For me, a fairway should be starting at around 180 yards away from the longer tees. If we're struggling from there then the player needs to move forward a tee or play more club. Gentle par four tee shots have always been my preferred opener for that reason (or in game, a hole that offers an easy out somewhere at least). Case in point, my favourite opening tee shot from a course I've played lots is at Hindhead. For the better player, you want to hug the left hand side of the fairway to avoid the greenside bunker and the fairway generally runs left to right, but for the less confident player, it's a pretty forgiving tee shot that allows you to hit as much as you want, but with a lot of heather waiting if you're miles offline. Relatively easy par if you're in the fairway (50 yards wide, starts at 180 yards from the back tee), good birdie look if you hit to the left side, bogey if you're in the heather. Great opener.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 11:04:00 GMT -5
Well, any iron is better than a wood for me, TBH. And I have far more confidence in my ability to hit a 'percentage' iron, than I do a wood.
What can I say ?
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 11:06:29 GMT -5
I try and design the first hole that way too, honestly, because I know it's a popular choice to start a round. But I'll admit it's a 'concession' on my part as a designer sometimes.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jul 22, 2020 11:46:53 GMT -5
Ezzino, Par 3s are my easiest holes in real life. I don't have the length to keep up with low handicappers on holes over 400 yards, but I can reach any sub-200 par 3 as well as they can. Usually good for at least one birdie a round on them, even with my maxed out handicap. Of course a par 3 is always easier to reach, compared to a 400+ yards par 4, but i think to start with an approach is always a bit harder than to start with a tee shot. Otherwise, par 3s would be always the easiest holes on every course. Anyway, don't playing golf IRl, in my thought i don't kept in any count the question about the speed of game...and now it sounds to me easily like the best possible reason to avoid par 3s in the opening
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Post by mvpmanatee on Jul 22, 2020 11:53:09 GMT -5
What if I'm most comfortable hitting a nice 5-iron, just like I might when starting my day at the range ? If the opener is a 550yd par5, with a 220 yd carry to fairway, then all but 2 clubs are 'taken away'. I know, I'm a bit of a freak, lol. I think Bethpage Black is a good example of this. One of the most demanding courses on the planet that, as I have played it 5-6 times, definitely lives up to that hype. But the first hole is as gentle as it comes in terms of tee shots. A 25 yard wide, slightly downhill, tee shot where the fairway starts just 150 yards away, on a 400 yard par 4 with no trouble in sight besides a few trees on the corner. Albeit, I know 25 yards is not very wide, but it is for a shortish par 4 on a course that prides itself in narrow fairways. I always love stepping up to the first on the Black because I know with a few people watching me, and a great day in sight, I can just bunt anything from driver to 4-iron down the fairway somewhere and I know I am going to have no trouble, at least until the 2nd hole! It allows me a feel for my longer clubs while not forcing me to carry anything, and it allows the flow of the round to begin immediately as by the time you are on the tee, the group in front is already finishing up on the green. Of course the pros have turned this hole into a smash driver over the corner, a lob wedge to 4 feet and a tap in birdie, immediately moving on with their lives, but they are a different story.
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Post by pozbaird on Jul 22, 2020 11:56:38 GMT -5
Kind of an odd question, but I’ve noticed that it’s common for courses to begin on par 4s or 5s, but pretty much never begin on par 3s. Obviously there are exceptions, like Royal Lytham & St. Annes, but I’ve always wondered the reasoning behind this. Also, are there any other courses you know of that start on par 3s? I’ve been a member of four golf clubs since I started playing golf in 1974. All in the West of Scotland. Three of the four started with Par 3s... Lochwinnoch, Dullatur, Crow Wood. My current club, Cawder, starts with a Par 4.
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Post by pozbaird on Jul 22, 2020 12:03:42 GMT -5
Just had a read at the entire thread now. The OP seems quite angry about courses that don’t begin with Par 3 holes. Reading the thread, it would appear the reason for this anger is primarily down to the fact he’s shite at hitting at his driver. Also seems to be angry about clubs not culling membership numbers to ‘speed up play’. Dear oh dear. Ach, takes all sorts.
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Post by b101 on Jul 22, 2020 12:05:01 GMT -5
Just had a read at the entire thread now. The OP seems quite angry about courses that don’t begin with Par 3 holes. Reading the thread, it would appear the reason for this anger is primarily down to the fact he’s sh%$ hitting at his driver. Ach, takes all sorts. "Kind of an odd question, but I’ve noticed that it’s common for courses to begin on par 4s or 5s, but pretty much never begin on par 3s. Obviously there are exceptions, like Royal Lytham & St. Annes, but I’ve always wondered the reasoning behind this. Also, are there any other courses you know of that start on par 3s?"You reading the same OP I am?
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Post by jacobkessler on Jul 22, 2020 12:06:34 GMT -5
Just had a read at the entire thread now. The OP seems quite angry about courses that don’t begin with Par 3 holes. Reading the thread, it would appear the reason for this anger is primarily down to the fact he’s shite at hitting at his driver. Also seems to be angry about clubs not culling membership numbers to ‘speed up play’. Dear oh dear. Ach, takes all sorts. Angry? Lol I don’t care at all. I’m just curious.
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Post by pozbaird on Jul 22, 2020 12:07:26 GMT -5
Apologies, meant the first response TO the OP! Consider myself scolded! Sorry, Mr OP.
Won’t edit my post. 😀
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Post by pozbaird on Jul 22, 2020 12:07:58 GMT -5
Just had a read at the entire thread now. The OP seems quite angry about courses that don’t begin with Par 3 holes. Reading the thread, it would appear the reason for this anger is primarily down to the fact he’s shite at hitting at his driver. Also seems to be angry about clubs not culling membership numbers to ‘speed up play’. Dear oh dear. Ach, takes all sorts. Angry? Lol I don’t care at all. I’m just curious. See my mistake and apology. 😀 I was referring to the guy who somehow managed to bring the Kiss song ‘I Was Made For Loving You’ into things. 😜
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 13:39:42 GMT -5
Just had a read at the entire thread now. The OP seems quite angry about courses that don’t begin with Par 3 holes. Reading the thread, it would appear the reason for this anger is primarily down to the fact he’s shite at hitting at his driver. Also seems to be angry about clubs not culling membership numbers to ‘speed up play’. Dear oh dear. Ach, takes all sorts. That's a humorous interpretation. Can't a guy disagree without being 'angry', or politely offer counterpoint without getting abuse ? Would reducing course load & spreading tee times NOT alleviate the first tee backlog issue ? You may disagree, but doing so doesn't make you 'angry' to me. I'm just pointing out what I see asthe flaws in the 'this is how it SHOULD be done' fallacy. Several responses seem to indicate the original response of, basically 'don't do it' doesn't fly with them either. Rebut away. And now I owe you a casual round on one of yours, any course you'd steer me towards, Poz ?
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 13:49:03 GMT -5
I re-read it all, too, and I was a one of the very first simple 'yes' answers, until a certain reviewer stepped in with his 'explanation as to why not'. That sort of thing will always open the door for discussion with me. Some others got the point about 'artists trying to make their art for the trends and creating crap instead'. Kiss is a decent example ... rose to fame doing it their way, then decided to try and do what some producers thought the public wanted from them. Their arc promptly started going downhill. It did sell,though, just not to their existing rabid fan base.
I just used my personal game as rebuttal for generalizations "no one likes to hit an iron first" and "don't force a club out of a players hands". FWIW, I still use my driver from 1989, which is smaller-headed than most utility woods these days, and that's on me. Regardless, I didn't call anyone names, presuppose their emotional state, or put them down. Stay well ... but you, I definitely don't feel I owe a polite round for my kibitzing.
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Post by PicnicGuy / BobalooNOLA on Jul 22, 2020 14:10:41 GMT -5
What if I'm most comfortable hitting a nice 5-iron, just like I might when starting my day at the range ? If the opener is a 550yd par5, with a 220 yd carry to fairway, then all but 2 clubs are 'taken away'. I know, I'm a bit of a freak, lol. I think Bethpage Black is a good example of this. One of the most demanding courses on the planet that, as I have played it 5-6 times, definitely lives up to that hype. But the first hole is as gentle as it comes in terms of tee shots. A 25 yard wide, slightly downhill, tee shot where the fairway starts just 150 yards away, on a 400 yard par 4 with no trouble in sight besides a few trees on the corner. Albeit, I know 25 yards is not very wide, but it is for a shortish par 4 on a course that prides itself in narrow fairways. I always love stepping up to the first on the Black because I know with a few people watching me, and a great day in sight, I can just bunt anything from driver to 4-iron down the fairway somewhere and I know I am going to have no trouble, at least until the 2nd hole! It allows me a feel for my longer clubs while not forcing me to carry anything, and it allows the flow of the round to begin immediately as by the time you are on the tee, the group in front is already finishing up on the green. Of course the pros have turned this hole into a smash driver over the corner, a lob wedge to 4 feet and a tap in birdie, immediately moving on with their lives, but they are a different story. Props for playing Bethpage, man ! I've only gotten on a handful of 'reknowned' courses in my lifetime, and none so legendary. I love those kinds of holes, too. Not sure where the idea I hate them comes from. b101 was who first explained "why" Par 3 1st holes should be a no-no, which is his right to his opinion. But it's just that. My first post in this thread was a "Yes, here's my RL example". The OP asked "why", I assume a discussion was what should ensue whenever "why" is asked, except with a) your own children or b)paid employees, LOL.
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