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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 16:34:55 GMT -5
The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). Its not the aids, it's the dispersion. And the physics. And the carry distance. And the inability of designers to set winds. I can guarantee you I would shoot horribly without the scout cam. But that doesn't mean the course plays true to life. Dispersion: this game don't offer anything more challenging than master clubs (new game will) - so that is top difficulty. But you can remove scout cam, and I bet you will miss more fairways. As I've said plenty of times - I agree that the top difficulty is way too easy - and that it is the same difficulty in hitting straight with any club in the bag - and that is unrealistic and a flaw in the game. Physics: as close to real life as I have seen in a video golf game. I do think there is too much roll in heavy rough, but it is not bad. Carry distances: this is based on average on the PGA tour and on master clubs they are very good for simulating PGA Tour level play. That is realistic, and what the game intends to do. The game is not called "amateur golf". There are lots of players hitting futher than the game do. Good real courses offers challenge and fun for all kind of players - also the longer hitting players. No strategy lost. Why should the designer set winds? A good course is fun to play in all winds.
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Post by b101 on Jun 28, 2020 16:43:37 GMT -5
Its not the aids, it's the dispersion. And the physics. And the carry distance. And the inability of designers to set winds. I can guarantee you I would shoot horribly without the scout cam. But that doesn't mean the course plays true to life. Dispersion: this game don't offer anything more challenging than master clubs (new game will) - so that is top difficulty. But you can remove scout cam, and I bet you will miss more fairways. As I've said plenty of times - I agree that the top difficulty is way too easy - and that it is the same difficulty in hitting straight with any club in the bag - and that is unrealistic and a flaw in the game. Physics: as close to real life as I have seen in a video golf game. I do think there is too much roll in heavy rough, but it is not bad. Carry distances: this is based on average on the PGA tour and on master clubs they are very good for simulating PGA Tour level play. That is realistic, and what the game intends to do. The game is not called "amateur golf". There are lots of players hitting futher than the game do. Good real courses offers challenge and fun for all kind of players - also the longer hitting players. No strategy lost. Why should the designer set winds? A good course is fun to play in all winds.Because prevailing winds and typical wind speeds are very much a thing in real life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 16:48:28 GMT -5
Dispersion: this game don't offer anything more challenging than master clubs (new game will) - so that is top difficulty. But you can remove scout cam, and I bet you will miss more fairways. As I've said plenty of times - I agree that the top difficulty is way too easy - and that it is the same difficulty in hitting straight with any club in the bag - and that is unrealistic and a flaw in the game. Physics: as close to real life as I have seen in a video golf game. I do think there is too much roll in heavy rough, but it is not bad. Carry distances: this is based on average on the PGA tour and on master clubs they are very good for simulating PGA Tour level play. That is realistic, and what the game intends to do. The game is not called "amateur golf". There are lots of players hitting futher than the game do. Good real courses offers challenge and fun for all kind of players - also the longer hitting players. No strategy lost. Why should the designer set winds? A good course is fun to play in all winds.Because prevailing winds and typical wind speeds are very much a thing in real life. Fair enough - but the the typical wind direction and strength is just that - typiical, and it will vary. So I don't see a huge point on it, though it doesn't hurt to have a default wind direction and speed that we can put in the designer when recreating courses. One could also point out that wind direction can vary inside the course - where you get some effects where the wind turns. I am not familiar with the wording on those effects.
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Post by b101 on Jun 28, 2020 16:52:29 GMT -5
Because prevailing winds and typical wind speeds are very much a thing in real life. Fair enough - but the the typical wind direction and strength is just that - typiical, and it will vary. So I don't see a huge point on it, though it doesn't hurt to have a default wind direction and speed that we can put in the designer when recreating courses. I'm so confused by this as it goes against a lot of what you've previously mentioned. You advocate realism, yet would be happy with Sand Hills-like 30mph winds on an inland, tree-lined parkland course, because it should play well in all winds? It just doesn't fit and is a huge part of how courses play. Coore and Crenshaw literally took the decision to build Sheep Ranch without bunkers purely because of wind - real life architects will always factor in wind with hazards rather than just assuming it will play well whatever the conditions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 17:03:08 GMT -5
Fair enough - but the the typical wind direction and strength is just that - typiical, and it will vary. So I don't see a huge point on it, though it doesn't hurt to have a default wind direction and speed that we can put in the designer when recreating courses. I'm so confused by this as it goes against a lot of what you've previously mentioned. You advocate realism, yet would be happy with Sand Hills-like 30mph winds on an inland, tree-lined parkland course, because it should play well in all winds? It just doesn't fit and is a huge part of how courses play. Coore and Crenshaw literally took the decision to build Sheep Ranch without bunkers purely because of wind - real life architects will always factor in wind with hazards rather than just assuming it will play well whatever the conditions. I just played golf today. Inland parkland/forest course. Rain on and off, and wind gust that was quite huge in those downpours. I have earlier played the same course with wind of 30-40 mph. Yes, it is rare - but it do happen. Ofcourse architects take the prevailing wind into account. My point is though a good designed course is good in all winds - because it is good for all players. So if you have a strong tail or headwind on a given hole, the hole will play very different - but it will give you a good and fun challenge either way. Granted - some very long holes in strong headwind is hard to reach, and thus play a par higher than normal. But then again, par is just a number on the scorecard - and it is the same for every player on the field (yes, we do have tournaments that have different winds for players in the morning vs. afternoon etc - but that is just how it is. Sometimes you get struck by bad or good luck on wind).
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 28, 2020 18:07:41 GMT -5
I'm so confused by this as it goes against a lot of what you've previously mentioned. You advocate realism, yet would be happy with Sand Hills-like 30mph winds on an inland, tree-lined parkland course, because it should play well in all winds? It just doesn't fit and is a huge part of how courses play. Coore and Crenshaw literally took the decision to build Sheep Ranch without bunkers purely because of wind - real life architects will always factor in wind with hazards rather than just assuming it will play well whatever the conditions. I just played golf today. Inland parkland/forest course. Rain on and off, and wind gust that was quite huge in those downpours. I have earlier played the same course with wind of 30-40 mph. Yes, it is rare - but it do happen. Ofcourse architects take the prevailing wind into account. My point is though a good designed course is good in all winds - because it is good for all players. So if you have a strong tail or headwind on a given hole, the hole will play very different - but it will give you a good and fun challenge either way. Granted - some very long holes in strong headwind is hard to reach, and thus play a par higher than normal. But then again, par is just a number on the scorecard - and it is the same for every player on the field (yes, we do have tournaments that have different winds for players in the morning vs. afternoon etc - but that is just how it is. Sometimes you get struck by bad or good luck on wind). Courses are designed around prevailing winds. Im glad Ben brought up Sheep Ranch. That whole resort at Bandon is designed around the wind off the ocean. There's an RCR of Bandon Dunes that plays very well, but a lot of the strategies gets lost. And coore/crenshaw are very good at angles and strategy. But if you play Trinity (Coore/Crenshaw) in real life, it wouldn't come close to how it plays in game. Look at the 7th. Then play Kaiuma Bay and Surtsey Island. That par 5 "template" is very fun, but to translate it to the game some liberties had to be taken.
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Post by joegolferg on Jun 29, 2020 4:06:13 GMT -5
You're missing the point here. No aids makes the game harder for sure. Im not arguing that. Im not talking about difficulty. What im saying is strategies get lost. The courses play different. Aids or not. The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). The main reason that strategies are lost is because of the distances the ball is carried in game. So many RCR's have their hazards become obsolete because they're so easy to cross and carry and going down a club set just makes hitting the ball straight even easier.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 4:55:40 GMT -5
The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). The main reason that strategies are lost is because of the distances the ball is carried in game. So many RCR's have their hazards become obsolete because they're so easy to cross and carry and going down a club set just makes hitting the ball straight even easier. Yes, there has been claimed that modern carry distances makes old courses loose strategy. We have average PGA tour carry distances with master clubs. We do see changes on courses based on the changed carry distances that is seen on tour. Increased carry distances has also been a point for the ruling bodies in golf (USGA and R&A) and they do not want any more increased distances (most important is the area needed for courses, and they do not want longer courses that need even more area) - though they are very clear that physical and athletic improvement is to be encouraged. So we are likely to see even more restriction on balls and clubs. The latest big discussion is for example the 13th on Augusta. So, the video game itself is not loosing any strategy - if the modern carry distances is loosing strategy, that is purely a result of modern day golf. A video golf game that is meant to simulate top level PGA tour golf can't have different carry distances than the tour. Like the discussion seen on the 13th on Augusta - I do not find it clear that modern day carry distances loose strategy. Yes - old courses are designed with old carry distances. And there can indeed be points on specific holes or courses that they need to change for the top level golf - but that is not given at all.
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Post by gamesdecent on Jun 29, 2020 7:51:46 GMT -5
You're missing the point here. No aids makes the game harder for sure. Im not arguing that. Im not talking about difficulty. What im saying is strategies get lost. The courses play different. Aids or not. The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). The strategy IS lost though for the most part though. When I play my Fishers Island RCR I take my driver out of the bag so I’m hitting ~260-270 off the tee instead of 320-330 and it’s incredible how much more thought comes into play, trajectories into greens change, it’s tougher to get angles, etc. It’s much closer to how the course plays for people in real life, and how it was designed to play back when it was built.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:00:22 GMT -5
The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). The strategy IS lost though for the most part though. When I play my Fishers Island RCR I take my driver out of the bag so I’m hitting ~260-270 off the tee instead of 320-330 and it’s incredible how much more thought comes into play, trajectories into greens change, it’s tougher to get angles, etc. It’s much closer to how the course plays for people in real life, and how it was designed to play back when it was built. This game is not trying to replicate amateur golf. Starting out a career with a new golfer in TW 08 brought that aspect into the game, with carry of 150-170 with a driver in the beginning of the career. Yes - all courses play very different for a golfer with slower swing speed and less carry. That do not mean the courses loose it's strategy for the good and top level players. I can go out on a course and play on a forward tee, and get a very different strategy on the course compared to the back tee with my same swing. You can do the same in this game. All courses are designed for golfers of different skills - the goal is to make it challenging and fun for every golfer no matter swing speed. So when you play a real course in this game, you play it as a PGA tour pro. That is not how most amateurs play a golf course, because they don't have the skills of a tour pro. If you want a video golf game that replicate amateur golf - I think you need to go back to TW 08 - and then you need to stop putting points into power at some point - because you get carry of 300+ yards at the end in that game. TGC2019 is not the game you are looking for, and PGA2k21 is most likely also not going to bring amateur golf into the game.
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Post by gamesdecent on Jun 29, 2020 12:19:33 GMT -5
Playing forward tees and hitting it 50 yards past all the hazards isn’t “different strategy” though. Hitting 7-iron to the dogleg instead of threading a driver down a tree line to it isn’t “different strategy”. It’s removing the strategy.
The bottom line is MOST RCR’s (the best courses, as you said) lose their strategy in this game. Cypress Point, Fishers Island, Sweetens Cove, even Seminole, all RCR’s I’ve done that play MUCH easier in this game than they do in real life, whether you’re a pro golfer or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 12:29:09 GMT -5
Playing forward tees and hitting it 50 yards past all the hazards isn’t “different strategy” though. Hitting 7-iron to the dogleg instead of threading a driver down a tree line to it isn’t “different strategy”. It’s removing the strategy. The bottom line is MOST RCR’s (the best courses, as you said) lose their strategy in this game. Cypress Point, Fishers Island, Sweetens Cove, even Seminole, all RCR’s I’ve done that play MUCH easier in this game than they do in real life, whether you’re a pro golfer or not. You said that increased driving distance is removing strategy from a course - not how easy or difficult the game is. If the game is too easy - you need to adjust the difficulty and removing aids from the game. You do realise that hazards are not placed for every golfer? Why have a bunker at 150 yard on a long par 4? That bunker will not be in play for any good player. What is it for? The distance the game gives are average PGA tour. This is very realistic and how the game should be if it is to replicate PGA tour golf. There are alot of golfers that hit way longer than the game. Even amateurs.
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Post by gamesdecent on Jun 29, 2020 13:24:46 GMT -5
You said that increased driving distance is removing strategy from a course - not how easy or difficult the game is. If the game is too easy - you need to adjust the difficulty and removing aids from the game. The aids have nothing to do with driver distance or dispersion, so I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I'm awful at this game, I can't putt straight, and I duff chips almost as badly as I do in real life, the last thing I need is to turn aids off. But yet I can smash a driver 330 dead straight without penalty. There is no aid setting for this. The distance the game gives are average PGA tour. This is very realistic and how the game should be if it is to replicate PGA tour golf. There are alot of golfers that hit way longer than the game. Even amateurs. Yes, this is exactly why. RCR's. Don't. Translate. Well. To. The. Game. Because the average distance that a pro hits it, is far too long for any trouble to come into play off of the tips on the majority of courses in the world. That's why the tour essentially plays the same set of courses every year. Add in the fact that distance may be average PGA distance, the dispersion still is not. Yes, world long drive champions hit it way farther than PGA average. None of them are on tour because they have barely any control over it. The reason you have to turn off aids to increase difficulty, or I remove driver out of the bag because it hits too far, is exactly what makes our point and refutes yours. The vast majority of real courses do not translate well into the game.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 29, 2020 13:33:45 GMT -5
All this discussion is really interesting, but i also think that the debate about distances is a bit overrated when is applied to the conditions we usually play this game.
Of course, technologic improvements (and, probably in a slightly minor way, the increased athletism too) sometimes affects on the "wrong side" the sport in which it is applied. I think about Tennis, for example. One of my favorite sports to watch a 15/20 years ago, today ruined by the speed reached by the ball that minimize the time of response of players and, as a direct consequence, actually killed lot of the strategy, becoming a pretty boring show to watch, generally speaking.
On golf, these factors changed a lot how a course plays (is enough to say that, at the very start, biarritz where holes in which were required to use the longest clubs available, while now generally they are reachable using a long iron..and so go on). On those courses in which was possible to increase distances from the tees, some fix has been applied, but this is not possible on every course.
But translating this on the videogame..and mainly on the Tour, that it should be the best golf experience possible for all we players, obviously it changes a lot how a rcr plays but i still believe that the damage created by this factor on strategy is actually almost nothing, compared with the damage the scout cam makes, because for me is this that kills the strategy. Way much more than the increased reachable distances. If i know exactly where to aim, even playing without a driver, i find honestly very hard to see some strategy survive.
Is for this reason that, until we'll play on Tour (as the majority of players does even outside the Tour) with the scout cam on, rcrs will be quite often violated (of course with the exception of a bunch of courses and if some very tough conditions are uded) by any medium/high level player and, way most important thing for me, they will never be enjoyable as a real course could/should ever be...i don't think that less distance covered would change so much this situation..and is for this reason that if these are the conditions we use, i believe that every debate about realism applied on fictional courses, on this game simply should need always some compromize to have courses challenging and entertaining enough for the majority of players, with no need to crank up the game conditions.
Of course, my point of view about rcrs and strategy changes totally (and immediately!) if we talk about to play with no scout cam. And i don't talk mainly about scores, i think they would be higher maybe by 2/4 strokes per round, without this aid. But is the enjoyability and the strategy that are totally different, for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 14:03:06 GMT -5
You said that increased driving distance is removing strategy from a course - not how easy or difficult the game is. If the game is too easy - you need to adjust the difficulty and removing aids from the game. The aids have nothing to do with driver distance or dispersion, so I don't know why you keep bringing this up. The distance the game gives are average PGA tour. This is very realistic and how the game should be if it is to replicate PGA tour golf. There are alot of golfers that hit way longer than the game. Even amateurs. Yes, this is exactly why. RCR's. Don't. Translate. Well. To. The. Game. Because the average distance that a pro hits it, is far too long for any trouble to come into play 1: the scout cam is an aid to hit fairway and help avoid miss off the tee. Unfortunately, master clubs are the most difficult level in the game when it comes to tempo and swingline - but for the majority that plays the game, it is plenty difficult enough. So, in the new game - when we get even more and better difficulties - if the game is too easy, then you have wrong difficulty settings, not too easy courses. You can't blame real courses for playing on too easy settings or using aids. Driver dispersion at the highest difficulty is a flaw in the game that has been heavy addressed to HB - and I expect to see that fixed in the new game. We agree that driver dispersion with master clubs is a flaw in the game, and make every course too easy - also the bad fantasy courses. 2: So realistic distances is far too long? You realise this game is made to simulate real life golf? You claim that the realistic distances is making the courses play unrealistic. This is wrong. Realistic distances makes the game play realistic - as a tour pro. For the majority of players, aids and medium difficulty will make them play as a tour pro - and the courses will play as they do for the pro's in real life. That you personally don't like the distances the pros have don't change that fact.
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