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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 8:14:48 GMT -5
So I'll admit I'm a little surprised about comments that building life-like courses create a boring experience. I completely disagree. I am challenged each time I play Augusta, same for Cabot Cliffs (in Canada! and many other real courses. I was drawn to this part of the TGC Tours site because of the intense consideration and scrutiny in course design concepts. Given a different path and a better understanding of turf management I'm sure some folks here could really do well in the real world of golf construction. In saying that - I'm honestly surprised that the same fervour shown for design isn't the same for real-world maintenance considerations. Many of the fictional courses here already reach that standard - others with a few tweaks could easily. I guess these things to stand out more for me because it's been my career. We can all move to a fall-back position on comments about design and course features by saying "it's just a video game', but I've come to respect a lot of your attention to detail and search for perfection; and I don't buy it. The next step is making sure it could really be built and maintained if you want the final piece of the puzzle in making turning this 'game' into a simulation. Remember TGC is used in clubhouses, golf shops and bars around the world as a simulator and not as a video game. Let's give them the real thing.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jun 28, 2020 9:04:38 GMT -5
I can’t speak for other designers’ thought processes when deciding what kind of course they’re going to make, real vs realistic vs fantasy. For me, I am drawn to the more fantasy type courses because there are no rules for my design. I can open my book of creativity and have full control of the environment. The moments where I enjoy designing the most are when I start seeing my designs come to life as one cohesive environment; course, landscape, planting, lighting. There are probably hundreds of different mindsets and motivations for getting into course design on TGC. Having the real world knowledge of course architecture and management like you do is a huge plus and it’s obviously your passion and I totally agree we need fictional courses with those real world characteristics and considerations and I’m sure there’s been designers here that have had that mindset while making their courses. There’s no wrong answer, that’s the beauty of designing in a video game. We can have the fantasy courses, the realistic fictional courses and the real world courses. The number of talented designers in this game is booming and we’re hitting sort of a golden age for TGC design.
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Post by b101 on Jun 28, 2020 9:07:07 GMT -5
Where I come down on it ultimately is pretty simple. The very top courses in the game are realistic enough, even the courses leaning toward fantasy and do focus on things like drainage as Joe mentioned. I'd also rather us move away from obsessing over minutiae like transitions, flat tee boxes etc and focus on creating good, varied golf holes in believable (yet, perhaps fantastical) environments. I've seen far too many people nitpick over how perfectly something is lined up because actually critiquing the hole design or routing requires more effort, taking a leap of faith in putting forward an opinion rather than state a fact of 'this isn't flat' or work in deepening their understanding.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 28, 2020 10:37:50 GMT -5
I think the best fictional courses are either A) so realistic in the aspects that you pointed out, whether the designer made the decision consciously or not, that they can pass for a real course or B) so fantastical that they transport you completely out of your normal golfing mindset into a place you know can’t exist but also can’t wait to explore. I think doing things like putting lakes or ponds at the low points on a property as opposed to haphazardly anywhere hole strategy dictates, making tees and green sites on natural high points of the routing, sculpting greens so that they would drain naturally, etc. all contribute to keeping a player immersed in your environment without jarring them awake with something that doesn’t look natural or feel quite right. Pretty funny hearing comments like that from DMK though who is probably one of the most criticized architects for how much square footage and turf maintenance his courses require. Go look how massive the fairways are on a Mammoth Dunes, Tetherow, etc. and imagine the budget required. All of this. Kidd seemed a bit hypocritical. But every good architect, I think, pushes the edge of what even they think is a "correct" way to design. Its how the game of golf and architecture evolves. Read mckenzie's "rules" and then study some of his courses. Furthermore, I believe the interview referenced in the OP was the same one Urbina mentioned templates as a starting point, but don't let it keep you from creating an original hole when you see it (or something like that), which I believe is a good take. And as far as maintenance and wide fairways, he's made a pretty good living off widening and opening up courses.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 13:56:14 GMT -5
Agree with some, disagree with some. Going to bullet point a few thoughts for ease: - The main one: it's a game rather than real life. With that in mind, there are times where we a) can take liberties and b) need to take liberties. Most RCR's translate poorly in game because real life hazard placements are trivial in a game where you can hit straight very easily. Many of us are hoping that the swing changes in 2K to allow a wider dispersion and therefore more realistic design. However, the chess match scenario you mention pretty much comes from here. RCR's or real courses do not translate poorly in the game. That the game with all the aids is too easy for some players have nothing to do with that. Even if the new game (which HB claims) has much harder difficulty, the vast majority of players will not play on that kind of difficulty - so you can still play the game how easy you will. I would also like to point out that all courses are different. Some are better than others, and some are more challenging for the better players that we simulate in such a game - the best players on the PGA tour. The best courses in the world, gives both the PGA tour player, the good amateur, the par player, and the bogey player a good challenge and experience. So if you play a course and you think "this was a bit easy" - perhaps the course is a bit easy for the better player - but it is not necessary easy for the not so good player - and thus have a different target group of golfers. And a last point: fifctional courses that are designed with all golfers in mind - to give all kind of golfers a good and challenging experience - are the better courses also in a game such as this. That means that the best courses are those that is most realistic. Now, this is ofcourse my opinion - but think for a second on how the course will play in different conditions and tees - and how the course can give different challenges based on tee and conditions for the better player. Since those that play this game have different skill and thus need different difficulties and aids to simulate that top level golf - we can and should just ignore those that master the game and shoot -20 in a round on the easy difficulty with all aids.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 14:05:08 GMT -5
So I'll admit I'm a little surprised about comments that building life-like courses create a boring experience. If you find the game too easy and thus boring - you should turn off some (or all) aids and turn up the difficulty level - unfortunately, TGC 2019 do not have proper difficulty levels, but it seems we get that in PGA2k21. "Tricked up courses" that intend to challenge the easy difficulties with all aids will always be bad courses imho and has nothing to do with golf.
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Post by b101 on Jun 28, 2020 14:08:23 GMT -5
Agree with some, disagree with some. Going to bullet point a few thoughts for ease: - The main one: it's a game rather than real life. With that in mind, there are times where we a) can take liberties and b) need to take liberties. Most RCR's translate poorly in game because real life hazard placements are trivial in a game where you can hit straight very easily. Many of us are hoping that the swing changes in 2K to allow a wider dispersion and therefore more realistic design. However, the chess match scenario you mention pretty much comes from here. RCR's or real courses do not translate poorly in the game. That the game with all the aids is too easy for some players have nothing to do with that. Even if the new game (which HB claims) has much harder difficulty, the vast majority of players will not play on that kind of difficulty - so you can still play the game how easy you will. I would also like to point out that all courses are different. Some are better than others, and some are more challenging for the better players that we simulate in such a game - the best players on the PGA tour. The best courses in the world, gives both the PGA tour player, the good amateur, the par player, and the bogey player a good challenge and experience. So if you play a course and you think "this was a bit easy" - perhaps the course is a bit easy for the better player - but it is not necessary easy for the not so good player - and thus have a different target group of golfers. And a last point: fifctional courses that are designed with all golfers in mind - to give all kind of golfers a good and challenging experience - are the better courses also in a game such as this. That means that the best courses are those that is most realistic. Now, this is ofcourse my opinion - but think for a second on how the course will play in different conditions and tees - and how the course can give different challenges based on tee and conditions for the better player. Since those that play this game have different skill and thus need different difficulties and aids to simulate that top level golf - we can and should just ignore those that master the game and shoot -20 in a round on the easy difficulty with all aids. Yeah, you're misreading my post and I generally agree with most of what you mention, particularly the final paragraph. To clarify my point on RCRs, if you maintain a 40 yard ish wide fairway and bunker either side, you're not challenging players and it's generally straightforward to play. That's not a critique of the course or its designer, but a critique of the way it's SO trivially easy to hit straight in the game, to the point that hazards either side of a fairway simply don't matter unless you really exacerbate the angles or green contours. I'm not claiming that's good design, but if you want to design to make the game interesting to play, you generally have to take creative freedom with real life dimensions. The misses that exist in real life just don't in TGC. I know you have strong views on RCRs, so I'm not trying to convert you here, but I stand by my point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 14:19:30 GMT -5
RCR's or real courses do not translate poorly in the game. That the game with all the aids is too easy for some players have nothing to do with that. Even if the new game (which HB claims) has much harder difficulty, the vast majority of players will not play on that kind of difficulty - so you can still play the game how easy you will. I would also like to point out that all courses are different. Some are better than others, and some are more challenging for the better players that we simulate in such a game - the best players on the PGA tour. The best courses in the world, gives both the PGA tour player, the good amateur, the par player, and the bogey player a good challenge and experience. So if you play a course and you think "this was a bit easy" - perhaps the course is a bit easy for the better player - but it is not necessary easy for the not so good player - and thus have a different target group of golfers. And a last point: fifctional courses that are designed with all golfers in mind - to give all kind of golfers a good and challenging experience - are the better courses also in a game such as this. That means that the best courses are those that is most realistic. Now, this is ofcourse my opinion - but think for a second on how the course will play in different conditions and tees - and how the course can give different challenges based on tee and conditions for the better player. Since those that play this game have different skill and thus need different difficulties and aids to simulate that top level golf - we can and should just ignore those that master the game and shoot -20 in a round on the easy difficulty with all aids. Yeah, you're misreading my post and I generally agree with most of what you mention, particularly the final paragraph. To clarify my point on RCRs, if you maintain a 40 yard ish wide fairway and bunker either side, you're not challenging players and it's generally straightforward to play. That's not a critique of the course or its designer, but a critique of the way it's SO trivially easy to hit straight in the game, to the point that hazards either side of a fairway simply don't matter unless you really exacerbate the angles or green contours. I'm not claiming that's good design, but if you want to design to make the game interesting to play, you generally have to take creative freedom with real life dimensions. The misses that exist in real life just don't in TGC. I know you have strong views on RCRs, so I'm not trying to convert you here, but I stand by my point. I completely agree that it is way too easy to drive straight on the hardest difficulty (master clubs) in TGC2019. And also that it is no difference in difficulty to hit straight with a driver compared to a 3 wood etc - which is unrealistic. This is ofcourse a flaw in the game for those that seek a more realistic and challenging game - but to be clear, the vast majority of those that play the game will not play a more difficult game. But this will hopefully be better in the new game. And - so many players claiming "boring" courses when they play on easy difficulties and with all aids ... if it is boring, why not turn up the difficulty and turn off some aids - like the scout cam? As I stated - courses that intend to challenge the good players in the video game that plays with all aids and on easier difficulty - will imho not be good. They will mostly get complaints and not be fun and enjoyable to play.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 28, 2020 14:58:41 GMT -5
Rcrs don't translate well. The game is too easy. They look good and are fun to play, but the strategies that make a lot of these courses great gets lost. Dispersion isn't great enough and there's isn't a way to make some hole terrains softer or harder than others. Plus the prevailing wind/speed thing. I've been doing a lot of research into how some of the best courses play. One example: standrewsbeachgolf.com.au/course-guide/If you were to play this course irl you'd like to have this guide. Now, in game, it would be pretty useless. I realize that a lidar or rcr of this course would play well and look good, but to recreate the strategy and make it play true to life would require taking some liberties.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 15:11:42 GMT -5
Rcrs don't translate well. The game is too easy. And you have tried to play all the real courses with no aids - including no loft box, master clubs, very high winds, very fast and firm?
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Post by joegolferg on Jun 28, 2020 15:25:26 GMT -5
Rcrs don't translate well. The game is too easy. And you have tried to play all the real courses with no aids - including no loft box, master clubs, very high winds, very fast and firm? A majority just will not go for those settings. You have to base it on the most popular way to play the game which happens to be all aids on.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 28, 2020 15:31:20 GMT -5
Rcrs don't translate well. The game is too easy. And you have tried to play all the real courses with no aids - including no loft box, master clubs, very high winds, very fast and firm? You're missing the point here. No aids makes the game harder for sure. Im not arguing that. Im not talking about difficulty. What im saying is strategies get lost. The courses play different. Aids or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 15:42:10 GMT -5
And you have tried to play all the real courses with no aids - including no loft box, master clubs, very high winds, very fast and firm? A majority just will not go for those settings. You have to base it on the most popular way to play the game which happens to be all aids on. That is a moot point - if one claims that the game is too easy and so the courses is too easy - you either up the difficulty (removing aids) or stop complaining. For the majority, the game is not too easy, and so they enjoy normal real courses.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 15:45:15 GMT -5
And you have tried to play all the real courses with no aids - including no loft box, master clubs, very high winds, very fast and firm? You're missing the point here. No aids makes the game harder for sure. Im not arguing that. Im not talking about difficulty. What im saying is strategies get lost. The courses play different. Aids or not. The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties).
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 28, 2020 16:25:07 GMT -5
You're missing the point here. No aids makes the game harder for sure. Im not arguing that. Im not talking about difficulty. What im saying is strategies get lost. The courses play different. Aids or not. The strategy is not lost if you play the game on higher difficulty settings. Unfortunately, in TGC 2019, the clubset idea (which is imho bad game design) makes the hardest setting not difficult enough for the best players. So you need to remove aids. All the aids. And then come back to me and say the strategy is lost. (And hopefully, in the new game - it will be much harder to hit straight on the long clubs on the higher difficulties). Its not the aids, it's the dispersion. And the physics. And the carry distance. And the inability of designers to set winds. I can guarantee you I would shoot horribly without the scout cam. But that doesn't mean the course plays true to life.
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