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Post by nevadaballin on Jun 7, 2020 12:58:47 GMT -5
All questions:
Just curious as to why WGR isn't the determining factor on what flight a player is on?
For example's sake, let's say each flight from PGA down thru the CC's is 150 players each. Wouldn't it make sense for a player who went from 160th to 149th go from Euro to PGA and whoever got knocked out be moved to Euro?
And do this on a bi-weekly basis instead of weekly?
I think this would provide for better balance in the overall big picture of a season, wouldn't it?
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Post by CTLegacy on Jun 7, 2020 16:28:35 GMT -5
Because whoever wins in CC-F gets the same amount of WGR points roughly as the 94th place finisher in CC-B or the 91st in CC-C or the 52nd in CC-E... So essentially you could win every single week in CC-F and not get as many WGR points as someone who comes in the top 50 of CC-E every week. Would be pretty difficult to move up in that case.
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Jun 7, 2020 16:39:40 GMT -5
All questions: Just curious as to why WGR isn't the determining factor on what flight a player is on? For example's sake, let's say each flight from PGA down thru the CC's is 150 players each. Wouldn't it make sense for a player who went from 160th to 149th go from Euro to PGA and whoever got knocked out be moved to Euro? And do this on a bi-weekly basis instead of weekly? I think this would provide for better balance in the overall big picture of a season, wouldn't it? How would this work for those fresh out of Q School that qualify high up on a Pro Tour? Or even in CC-Pro? It would take a long time for your WGR to "catch up" to the tour you qualified for. I think that WGR goes back for your best 40 results out of the last 65 weeks. That means that WGR is a fairly large time period to look on. This would mean that those improving their game would take a while to move up as it would take many weeks of results to move up enough.
Basically, I think it would create inconsistencies and would cause players to move too slowly.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jun 7, 2020 17:09:34 GMT -5
All questions: Just curious as to why WGR isn't the determining factor on what flight a player is on? For example's sake, let's say each flight from PGA down thru the CC's is 150 players each. Wouldn't it make sense for a player who went from 160th to 149th go from Euro to PGA and whoever got knocked out be moved to Euro? And do this on a bi-weekly basis instead of weekly? I think this would provide for better balance in the overall big picture of a season, wouldn't it? How would this work for those fresh out of Q School that qualify high up on a Pro Tour? Or even in CC-Pro? It would take a long time for your WGR to "catch up" to the tour you qualified for. I think that WGR goes back for your best 40 results out of the last 65 weeks. That means that WGR is a fairly large time period to look on. This would mean that those improving their game would take a while to move up as it would take many weeks of results to move up enough.
Basically, I think it would create inconsistencies and would cause players to move too slowly.
We already have inconsistencies though, which is what made me create this post... the #12 and #38 players in the league coming into this past week are on Euro... and so is the #3,950th. Maybe we need a different way to rank and place players?
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Post by Cecil Harvey on Jun 7, 2020 17:42:39 GMT -5
How would this work for those fresh out of Q School that qualify high up on a Pro Tour? Or even in CC-Pro? It would take a long time for your WGR to "catch up" to the tour you qualified for. I think that WGR goes back for your best 40 results out of the last 65 weeks. That means that WGR is a fairly large time period to look on. This would mean that those improving their game would take a while to move up as it would take many weeks of results to move up enough.
Basically, I think it would create inconsistencies and would cause players to move too slowly.
We already have inconsistencies though, which is what made me create this post... the #12 and #38 players in the league coming into this past week are on Euro... and so is the #3,950th. Maybe we need a different way to rank and place players? #13 and #38 don't look long for the Euro Tour based on their finishes. And #3950 basically tells me a returning player after a long layoff or a new player from out of Q School recently. These are anomolies in the current system, yes. Keep in mind that tgctours is full of members who go inactive for long periods and then come back and tgctours is also full of new incoming members every week. The way WGR works would have the inactive players returning drop (in some cases many) tours when they return in your proposal, but that would be because of inactivity, not necessarily because of skill and some would trounce the current CC-Am tours with a slow rise in WGR as it works, having them move up at a slow pace and clogging up lower tours for months potentially at a time.
I think that the inconsistencies your proposal would create would be far greater than what we currently have. Currently you may have overlap with players a tour above/below you, and even so two tours apart. But going more than that and you wouldn't fit in as much and you would be too out of place one way or the other for the most part. Strictly off of WGR could put top tour players in the CC-Am level for many weeks and linger into months just because of a WGR number that reflects their activity level on tgctours much more than their actual skill.
Am I proposing a better system? No, I am not, but I am just poking holes in your idea of using WGR as a metric to stock the tours.
I think ranking and placing players on tours are two separate things that go on here and deserve different mindsets. WGR is mostly a d*** measuring tool anymore and doesn't do anything else AFAIK. The tiered tour structure has been constantly tweaked ever since I got here (My third week playing saw the creation of the Challenge Circuits - Remember Web-A, Web-B, Web-C, Champions-A, and Champions-B?) as have promotions and demotions. It's amazing how different things were in season one now that I think back. Two co-existing top tours. You had to register for events each week and had to enter your scores in to verify them. Promotions were in the form of getting chances to move up with a good enough round based off of score. Someone please remind me of the term that we used to use.. it had an (S) by your name when you were trying to make the next higher up tour.
Hopefully we get another Q School event in the new game? Maybe even the holy grail of a WGR wiped slate and start anew for TGC2K21?
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Post by Doyley on Jun 7, 2020 18:04:50 GMT -5
Sponsor Exemption - they were fun but just complicated enough that it caused us too many headaches to admin as we got bigger.
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Post by nevadaballin on Jun 7, 2020 19:01:34 GMT -5
We already have inconsistencies though, which is what made me create this post... the #12 and #38 players in the league coming into this past week are on Euro... and so is the #3,950th. Maybe we need a different way to rank and place players? #13 and #38 don't look long for the Euro Tour based on their finishes. And #3950 basically tells me a returning player after a long layoff or a new player from out of Q School recently. These are anomolies in the current system, yes. Keep in mind that tgctours is full of members who go inactive for long periods and then come back and tgctours is also full of new incoming members every week. The way WGR works would have the inactive players returning drop (in some cases many) tours when they return in your proposal, but that would be because of inactivity, not necessarily because of skill and some would trounce the current CC-Am tours with a slow rise in WGR as it works, having them move up at a slow pace and clogging up lower tours for months potentially at a time.
I think that the inconsistencies your proposal would create would be far greater than what we currently have. Currently you may have overlap with players a tour above/below you, and even so two tours apart. But going more than that and you wouldn't fit in as much and you would be too out of place one way or the other for the most part. Strictly off of WGR could put top tour players in the CC-Am level for many weeks and linger into months just because of a WGR number that reflects their activity level on tgctours much more than their actual skill.
Am I proposing a better system? No, I am not, but I am just poking holes in your idea of using WGR as a metric to stock the tours.
I think ranking and placing players on tours are two separate things that go on here and deserve different mindsets. WGR is mostly a d*** measuring tool anymore and doesn't do anything else AFAIK. The tiered tour structure has been constantly tweaked ever since I got here (My third week playing saw the creation of the Challenge Circuits - Remember Web-A, Web-B, Web-C, Champions-A, and Champions-B?) as have promotions and demotions. It's amazing how different things were in season one now that I think back. Two co-existing top tours. You had to register for events each week and had to enter your scores in to verify them. Promotions were in the form of getting chances to move up with a good enough round based off of score. Someone please remind me of the term that we used to use.. it had an (S) by your name when you were trying to make the next higher up tour.
Hopefully we get another Q School event in the new game? Maybe even the holy grail of a WGR wiped slate and start anew for TGC2K21?
I always feel out of place so that's nothing haha. Seriously though, I understand your points here. And I've been here since Day 1 as well, I remember all of that stuff. Hell, I've been here long enough to remember TurboTony/TonyTurbo We do have a ton more players now then back then. A ton more. I *think* we do have some events that are WGR reliant, where some cannot play because they are not in the Top 50 or so which twists the different mindsets you mentioned. If that's still the case, then 2 Euro players would bump out 2 PGA players on the top tour. If WGR isn't what it's supposed to be anymore, then maybe a different way of figuring that out could be in the cards. Shorten the number of events involved in the formula? I don't know, i'm not the brightest bulb in the box when it comes to that stuff. My questions were more questions than any kind of proposals I had in mind and you did well answering them Bob. You made valid points and I get it. I really don't have any answers more than I just wanted to discuss it to see if there were any ideas on it. Maybe 2k21 will open a door or two for better balancing and some other ideas. Thanks for diving in on this with me and clarifying it a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 19:54:14 GMT -5
#13 and #38 don't look long for the Euro Tour based on their finishes. And #3950 basically tells me a returning player after a long layoff or a new player from out of Q School recently. These are anomolies in the current system, yes. Keep in mind that tgctours is full of members who go inactive for long periods and then come back and tgctours is also full of new incoming members every week. The way WGR works would have the inactive players returning drop (in some cases many) tours when they return in your proposal, but that would be because of inactivity, not necessarily because of skill and some would trounce the current CC-Am tours with a slow rise in WGR as it works, having them move up at a slow pace and clogging up lower tours for months potentially at a time.
I think that the inconsistencies your proposal would create would be far greater than what we currently have. Currently you may have overlap with players a tour above/below you, and even so two tours apart. But going more than that and you wouldn't fit in as much and you would be too out of place one way or the other for the most part. Strictly off of WGR could put top tour players in the CC-Am level for many weeks and linger into months just because of a WGR number that reflects their activity level on tgctours much more than their actual skill.
Am I proposing a better system? No, I am not, but I am just poking holes in your idea of using WGR as a metric to stock the tours.
I think ranking and placing players on tours are two separate things that go on here and deserve different mindsets. WGR is mostly a d*** measuring tool anymore and doesn't do anything else AFAIK. The tiered tour structure has been constantly tweaked ever since I got here (My third week playing saw the creation of the Challenge Circuits - Remember Web-A, Web-B, Web-C, Champions-A, and Champions-B?) as have promotions and demotions. It's amazing how different things were in season one now that I think back. Two co-existing top tours. You had to register for events each week and had to enter your scores in to verify them. Promotions were in the form of getting chances to move up with a good enough round based off of score. Someone please remind me of the term that we used to use.. it had an (S) by your name when you were trying to make the next higher up tour.
Hopefully we get another Q School event in the new game? Maybe even the holy grail of a WGR wiped slate and start anew for TGC2K21?
I always feel out of place so that's nothing haha. Seriously though, I understand your points here. And I've been here since Day 1 as well, I remember all of that stuff. Hell, I've been here long enough to remember TurboTony/TonyTurbo We do have a ton more players now then back then. A ton more. I *think* we do have some events that are WGR reliant, where some cannot play because they are not in the Top 50 or so which twists the different mindsets you mentioned. If that's still the case, then 2 Euro players would bump out 2 PGA players on the top tour. If WGR isn't what it's supposed to be anymore, then maybe a different way of figuring that out could be in the cards. Shorten the number of events involved in the formula? I don't know, i'm not the brightest bulb in the box when it comes to that stuff. My questions were more questions than any kind of proposals I had in mind and you did well answering them Bob. You made valid points and I get it. I really don't have any answers more than I just wanted to discuss it to see if there were any ideas on it. Maybe 2k21 will open a door or two for better balancing and some other ideas. Thanks for diving in on this with me and clarifying it a bit. Fed Ex points are used for WGC events these days not WGR. As for the #38 ranked player he started the season on PGA, had WD's so moved to Euro. Got promoted again after 3 top 10's but got demoted after more WD's. The question should be if someone has had 6 top 10's on the PGA should they be demoted to Euro through WD's as clearly they are too good for that tour? I think #13 was Daxon who was on PGA but quit after the new push/pull check came out. He just did Q school again and ended on Euro, be interesting to see how his swing fares now hes been promoted back to PGA.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Jun 7, 2020 21:34:42 GMT -5
There is to note that also IRL, actually, WGR is not indicative at all, at least starting from the 100/150th place, more or less. I noticed how much true this can be when, a pair of months ago, i tweaked all the field of 300 players to organize a private society mocking the PGA Tour, with real players names, realistic HCP etc..and, looking for the best players from all over the world (and the most important categories), i checked something like 600/700 players, exactly starting by the WGR as referring point (also adding some of my favorite players that for some reason, mainly their age, are waaaaay down in the standings..as Pato Cabrera, Bernhard Langer, KJ Choi, Miguel Angel Jimenez, Stricker or Ernie..or guys really broken for any reason as Graham Delaet, Hunter Mahan, Luke Donald or the unforgettable Brendon De Jong ). An interesting fact i noticed doing this is that often, and i mean really often, a lot of players not so good or, possibly, in deep crisis because in the last year missed lot of cuts falling down in the WGR, at some point they simply stop to play the Tour for which they actually STILL have the card, to move back in the Korn Freaks, the Challenge, the Sunshine, the Asian or other lower flights they are allowed to play (or also asking for some "Wild Card") and, after 3/5 good results in these tournaments, their standings improved incredibly, beacuse the WGR system offers to these categories a really good score (compared to the points lost by who continues just to struggle and to miss cuts in the PGA or Euro). Then they simply restart to play their "original" Tour. Is a common thing, for some player between the 150/400 place in the WGR..and this move is used not only by those young players that still need to "make their bones"...but also by some "old glory", sometimes. Nothing wrong, of course, but it explained a bit better (to me, at least) why often quite good players who struggles for a good while in the PGA/Euro Tour, can have a WGR so bad, compared to others players apparently less strong and gifted than they (and with less than a tenth of their career's achievements). As a selfish tought, i wish also to add that this season i already was forced to leave the tour for almost 4 months csuse my work, now probably i'll miss another month for a stupid broken hand (despite i'm trying to find a way to play even with just one hand )..if my category should depends by my WGR, probably i would be in cc-z, right now
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Post by rob4590 on Jun 8, 2020 2:04:29 GMT -5
Can't really compare real life WGR and TGCT WGR - for the simple reason that real money is involved in real life.
Yes you may get more (real life) WGR for a top 10 on (say) KF or Challenge tours than you would for 60-70th place on PGA or Euro (thus giving a higher WGR at the end of the season).......BUT......you will earn a lot more money over a season scraping around making cuts on PGA/Euro than top 10 on the secondary tours. And while money is totally irrelevant for Rory / DJ etc, making a living and supporting your family is the priority for anyone struggling around 100-150 on the money list / Fedex (or anyone on KF/Challenge)
eg: 115th on the 2019 Euro Race to Dubai (last player to keep their card) made 286k (euros) in earnings, while 15th (the last player to earn a Euro card) on the Challenge Tour made 86k.
Given the large expenses incurred on both tours - I know which one I'd prefer to be......(richer and lower down WGR - as until you get to top 64 in real life WGR, it doesn't get you any substantial advantage in what events you can enter. Plus you have that chance to earn 500k-1m in a week if you hit gold one week on the top tours)
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