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Post by progolfsynopsis on May 6, 2020 13:04:22 GMT -5
To me the very best holes have aesthetics and then either a component of strategy or variability in the way they can play. This can lead to a greater deviation in scores and create a blend of aesthetics and excitement. However, the hole should reward quality golf shots.
That's why I don't like the Road Hole at St. Andrews...good shots have a high probability of being punished. And that's why I'm not the biggest fan of #10 at Riviera, a lot of the time the score on that hole boils down to luck.
I think what makes the back nine at Augusta so great is that they have two world class par-3's. You could argue that a player can be punished despite hitting a quality shot on #12, but far more often than not if they hit a good shot they are rewarded. It's a hole with a large deviation in score and is aesthetically beautiful. And #16 I think gets underappreciated at times. It's a beautiful golf hole, but depending on the pin location it can play so differently and then the Sunday pin allows for players to possibly make a hole-in-one while double bogey is still very much into play.
Modern equipment has helped the design of #18 at Pebble because now they have a reasonable shot at reaching the green in two. Combine that with the aesthetics and it's arguably the greatest hole in the world.
17 at Bay Hill, I think is the best par-3 on the regular Tour. Beautiful par-3 with the rare use of a beach sand bunker (the bunker sand extends all the way to the water). What's brilliant about the hole besides the aesthetics is that it's a difficult approach shot, but the green is so flat that it has one of the highest make percentages of any green on Tour. Just a smart use of countering a difficult approach with an easy green and combining it with beautiful aesthetics and a rare course feature.
PGS
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Post by tpetro on May 6, 2020 14:29:28 GMT -5
That's why I don't like the Road Hole at St. Andrews...good shots have a high probability of being punished. And that's why I'm not the biggest fan of #10 at Riviera, a lot of the time the score on that hole boils down to luck. 17 at Bay Hill, I think is the best par-3 on the regular Tour. Beautiful par-3 with the rare use of a beach sand bunker (the bunker sand extends all the way to the water). What's brilliant about the hole besides the aesthetics is that it's a difficult approach shot, but the green is so flat that it has one of the highest make percentages of any green on Tour. Just a smart use of countering a difficult approach with an easy green and combining it with beautiful aesthetics and a rare course feature. First post on the forums trashing two of the most hallowed golf holes in favor of Bay Hill? Bold. As much as I may disagree with you, welcome to the forums! Always glad to have new faces here. And just a heads up, best hole on tour is a meaningless consideration. Beating out garbage like TPC River Highlands, Firestone, and Innisbrook is not an accomplishment.
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Post by gamesdecent on May 6, 2020 16:31:30 GMT -5
I would agree with him that #10 at Riviera is not a great hole anymore thanks to modern equipment. You can look at the shot dispersion during the tournament and almost every player bombs driver directly at the green and just tries to get as close as possible to the hole. There's virtually no strategy required on it anymore.
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Post by theduke21 on May 6, 2020 18:56:07 GMT -5
10th at Riviera has definitely played oddly recently. It's a weird hole when most of the players are basically just purposely hitting it into the trees on the left of the green.
Not sure what they could do. Maybe open up the green a bit from front left to make the pitch/wedge easier for those that want to lay up? Because that pitch can just be impossible. You miss the pitch 5 yards right or left and you can end up in either deadly bunker that players are trying to avoid off the tee.
Strong disagree on the 17th at St. Andrews though.
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Post by progolfsynopsis on May 6, 2020 20:27:59 GMT -5
That's why I don't like the Road Hole at St. Andrews...good shots have a high probability of being punished. And that's why I'm not the biggest fan of #10 at Riviera, a lot of the time the score on that hole boils down to luck. 17 at Bay Hill, I think is the best par-3 on the regular Tour. Beautiful par-3 with the rare use of a beach sand bunker (the bunker sand extends all the way to the water). What's brilliant about the hole besides the aesthetics is that it's a difficult approach shot, but the green is so flat that it has one of the highest make percentages of any green on Tour. Just a smart use of countering a difficult approach with an easy green and combining it with beautiful aesthetics and a rare course feature. First post on the forums trashing two of the most hallowed golf holes in favor of Bay Hill? Bold. As much as I may disagree with you, welcome to the forums! Always glad to have new faces here. And just a heads up, best hole on tour is a meaningless consideration. Beating out garbage like TPC River Highlands, Firestone, and Innisbrook is not an accomplishment. 17 on Bay Hill is an excellent par-3 anyway you slice it. I don't get the love for the road hole. Blind tee shot where you have no idea whether or not you're in trouble off the tee. A green where form does not follow function and gets goofy bounces and well struck drives and approach shots can still end up with a triple bogey. No thanks. #10 at Riviera just doesn't work well anymore. A few years ago the green was so hard that it was potluck. Now they softened the green and all of the guys play it the same...hit driver and avoid missing the green right. If you hit the green, great. If you don't, just pitch it back towards the middle of the green and try to 2-putt from 50-feet. And they haven't played Firestone on Tour for a few years now. PGA National, Bay Hill, Sawgrass, Riviera, Colonial, Pebble Beach, Spyglass, usually any of the NY/NJ course for the Barclays and any of the IL courses for the BMW Championship, East Lake, etc. are all fine courses. And I don't think TPC River Highlands is all that bad. PGS
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Post by knickerbocker on May 8, 2020 7:35:23 GMT -5
First post on the forums trashing two of the most hallowed golf holes in favor of Bay Hill? Bold. As much as I may disagree with you, welcome to the forums! Always glad to have new faces here. And just a heads up, best hole on tour is a meaningless consideration. Beating out garbage like TPC River Highlands, Firestone, and Innisbrook is not an accomplishment. 17 on Bay Hill is an excellent par-3 anyway you slice it. I don't get the love for the road hole. Blind tee shot where you have no idea whether or not you're in trouble off the tee. A green where form does not follow function and gets goofy bounces and well struck drives and approach shots can still end up with a triple bogey. No thanks. #10 at Riviera just doesn't work well anymore. A few years ago the green was so hard that it was potluck. Now they softened the green and all of the guys play it the same...hit driver and avoid missing the green right. If you hit the green, great. If you don't, just pitch it back towards the middle of the green and try to 2-putt from 50-feet. And they haven't played Firestone on Tour for a few years now. PGA National, Bay Hill, Sawgrass, Riviera, Colonial, Pebble Beach, Spyglass, usually any of the NY/NJ course for the Barclays and any of the IL courses for the BMW Championship, East Lake, etc. are all fine courses. And I don't think TPC River Highlands is all that bad. PGS Have you personally played the Road Hole? Your statements are incorrect. The tee shot is blind, but there is a clear aiming area. The green is a typical links challenge that requires the use of the ground and the slope of the land. If you are overly aggressive, then big numbers are in play. But playing for the right side of the green minimizes risk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2020 16:51:46 GMT -5
Going to add a couple personal favorites of mine, plus a distraction from why the second shot at the Road hole has been copied all over the world:
Essex County Club #11 Engineers #16 Los Angeles CC North #6 Highlands Links #7
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on May 8, 2020 22:07:48 GMT -5
Not sure about best but one of my favorite holes to play back in the day was #11 at Muirfield village in ohio. Butt clenching, fun, hard... but it let you hang yourself trying hero shots. That and the walk down into the fairway from the tee was always one of my favorites. Really all the par 5's at Muirfield are worth mentioning. Loved em all.
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Post by theduke21 on May 9, 2020 7:45:37 GMT -5
16th at Sawgrass is probably my favorite par 5 in the world. Requires you to work the ball both ways, tons of risk/reward on both shots, quirky Pete Dye bunkers and humps around the green.
10th and 11th at Royal Troon has also always been a pair of holes that I felt were as good as it gets for links golf.
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Post by mattyfromcanada on May 9, 2020 11:06:51 GMT -5
I'm going to stick to courses I've played as well.
Par 3s - Devils Cauldron at Banff, probably Canada's most iconic hole. It's truly stunning. My family knows which bunker I want my ashes scattered in when I kick the bucket.
#9 at Japer Park Lodge, the famed Cleopatra hole, another absolutely breathtaking hole.
Par 4s - #17 at Cabot Cliffs, so much fun to play, and one of the most intimidating tee shots anywhere.
#2 at Highlands Links, a bunkerless beauty with some crazy land movement. The green is severe as well and you can have some crazy putts. Super fun.
Par 5s - #15 at Highlands Links, again, crazy land movement. If you hit a bold tee shot that hugs the left treeline you can possibly get home in two.
#11 at Cabot Links, and uphill, multiple option, looooong par 5. The greensite is super fun too.
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Post by TannerBronson on Jun 1, 2020 20:47:11 GMT -5
Par 3s: Oak Hill New Hole No. 5: Winged Foot West Course Hole No. 10 Par 4s: Oak Hill New 525 yard Hole No. 6: California Golf Club Hole No. 2: Par 5s: Oak Hill Hole No 13: Shinnecock Hills Hole No. 16
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 9:14:07 GMT -5
I see lots of Par 3s on this list, but keeping in line with my preference for strategy I think the best would have to be a Par 5. Instead of a couple strategic elements, there can be several when navigating a well planned Par 5. I'm going to go with #13 at Augusta. There is so much going on with so many options here that it's just brilliant. Yes it's short (and I know they may be lengthening it) but it's a reachable 5 that isn't a walk in the park. First off the tee you have to work it right to left, ("or do you?" says Phil from the pine straw on the right side. Getting fancy and trying to cut the dogleg can lead to disaster in Ray's Creek. Then that approach - a decent sized green, but Ray's Creek guards it in front and to the right. And if you get it on in two then a two put isn't guaranteed. Plus just look at it - simply gorgeous. When walking around Augusta I'm always drawn to this hole. Standing by that pine straw is usually a quiet spot to watch golfers off the tee and setup their second shot. The same volunteers that have worked on this hole during the Masters oddly feel the same and can't believe they get to be a part of golf history every year on this hole. Thanks for this thread - now I'm craving on of those August Egg Salad Sandwiches!! PS my close second is the Par 4 #3 at Augusta. Looks like a pretty boring hole on the surface, but it's venom is in the subtle challenges. Just watch golfers play practice rounds on this hole - they'll drop several balls in trying to decide what the best strategy is into this green.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jun 21, 2020 9:31:54 GMT -5
I see lots of Par 3s on this list, but keeping in line with my preference for strategy I think the best would have to be a Par 5. Instead of a couple strategic elements, there can be several when navigating a well planned Par 5. I'm going to go with #13 at Augusta. There is so much going on with so many options here that it's just brilliant. Yes it's short (and I know they may be lengthening it) but it's a reachable 5 that isn't a walk in the park. First off the tee you have to work it right to left, ("or do you?" says Phil from the pine straw on the right side. Getting fancy and trying to cut the dogleg can lead to disaster in Ray's Creek. Then that approach - a decent sized green, but Ray's Creek guards it in front and to the right. And if you get it on in two then a two put isn't guaranteed. Plus just look at it - simply gorgeous. When walking around Augusta I'm always drawn to this hole. Standing by that pine straw is usually a quiet spot to watch golfers off the tee and setup their second shot. The same volunteers that have worked on this hole during the Masters oddly feel the same and can't believe they get to be a part of golf history every year on this hole. Thanks for this thread - now I'm craving on of those August Egg Salad Sandwiches!! PS my close second is the Par 4 #3 at Augusta. Looks like a pretty boring hole on the surface, but it's venom is in the subtle challenges. Just watch golfers play practice rounds on this hole - they'll drop several balls in trying to decide what the best strategy is into this green. One of my favorite tee shots in golf and a thrill ride from beginning to end. I’ll be really disappointed if they move the tee back
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Post by hallzballz6908 on Jun 21, 2020 13:29:50 GMT -5
I see lots of Par 3s on this list, but keeping in line with my preference for strategy I think the best would have to be a Par 5. Instead of a couple strategic elements, there can be several when navigating a well planned Par 5. I'm going to go with #13 at Augusta. There is so much going on with so many options here that it's just brilliant. Yes it's short (and I know they may be lengthening it) but it's a reachable 5 that isn't a walk in the park. First off the tee you have to work it right to left, ("or do you?" says Phil from the pine straw on the right side. Getting fancy and trying to cut the dogleg can lead to disaster in Ray's Creek. Then that approach - a decent sized green, but Ray's Creek guards it in front and to the right. And if you get it on in two then a two put isn't guaranteed. Plus just look at it - simply gorgeous. When walking around Augusta I'm always drawn to this hole. Standing by that pine straw is usually a quiet spot to watch golfers off the tee and setup their second shot. The same volunteers that have worked on this hole during the Masters oddly feel the same and can't believe they get to be a part of golf history every year on this hole. Thanks for this thread - now I'm craving on of those August Egg Salad Sandwiches!! PS my close second is the Par 4 #3 at Augusta. Looks like a pretty boring hole on the surface, but it's venom is in the subtle challenges. Just watch golfers play practice rounds on this hole - they'll drop several balls in trying to decide what the best strategy is into this green. Nice choice! #13 at Augusta is my favorite hole in all of golf. I love par 5s that, with well played shots, you can make eagle but with poorly played shots, you can make a 10 very easily. The 13th at Augusta does a perfect job of capturing the essence of a true risk/reward par 5 and always plays a huge role in the outcome of the Masters on Sunday. The combination of great strategic elements and absolutely breathtaking aesthetics make #13, in my opinion, the best par 5 (and arguably the best hole) in all of golf.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jun 25, 2020 9:43:21 GMT -5
For anyone interested, one of my favorite interviews i've listened to. It's with David McLay Kidd, designer of a number of holes and courses that could fit in this thread. Most notably, here in the US, Bandon Dunes, which paved the way for all the excellent courses at Bandon Resort. feedtheball.com/feed-the-ball-salon-vol-9-ft-david-mclay-kidd/
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