prodivot
Caddy
Posts: 49 
TGCT Name: Stevan Bowles
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Post by prodivot on Mar 9, 2015 16:57:33 GMT -5
Several years ago I worked on the grounds crew of a local course. On the days I was told to cut new holes I only had a few rules to follow and other than those few rules I was free to place the pins where I saw fit.
1) At least 10 feet from the fringe (preferably at least 15 but it depended on the green)
2) At least 20 feet from where the pin was previously.
3) Do not cut a hole on any substantial slope
I got my fair share of complaints for cutting holes close to the edges of slopes but I never cut one on the actual slope. Did I always cut on flat surfaces? No.
My general rule of thumb was if I could drop the ball straight down and it rolled more close to or more than 2 feet the slope was too great.
Don't take this as designer bashing because 99% of the time I'm in awe of what some of y'all have came up with but a poorly placed pin can ruin the entire hole. I don't have the time or patience to make these courses.
I'm just suggesting to not place the hole ON the slope but rather place it right at the peak or at the bottom. The overall difficulty would remain about the same while also remained fair to the players.
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Post by karma4u on Mar 10, 2015 0:17:40 GMT -5
So much logic and sense in one post.......Damn, i truly hope that some folks listen to you...............then again, if they don't their courses will see less plays.........thoughtful insight.......Cheers  |
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Post by fondername0 on Mar 10, 2015 10:22:29 GMT -5
I agree, but the problem is then guys will shoot -70+ under every tournament. Seriously, they might birdie or eagle every freaking hole.
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 12:15:41 GMT -5
Those are great rules for setting pin positions for high handicappers, not for setting professional courses.
Please stop posting rules for setting up the local public course as guidelines for tournament course setup, because they couldn't be farther from the truth.
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Post by smoknpirate on Mar 10, 2015 12:18:56 GMT -5
No idea how many people would use it, but it would be cool to have a feature in the GNCD that would allow for the "Drop Ball" test. Find your desired hole placement and hit a button and watch how far a ball has a tendency to roll. I know you can see the gridlines, but those aren't necessarily a great indicator of fairness. Other than if they're red/yellow.
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Post by BMann1976 on Mar 10, 2015 12:36:40 GMT -5
As long as the courses look pretty and are littered with colorful grasses, pretty flowers and varying rock landscapes, who cares where the pin placements are.  |
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prodivot
Caddy
Posts: 49
TGCT Name: Stevan Bowles
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Post by prodivot on Mar 10, 2015 12:41:58 GMT -5
Those are great rules for setting pin positions for high handicappers, not for setting professional courses. Please stop posting rules for setting up the local public course as guidelines for tournament course setup, because they couldn't be farther from the truth. Please tell me the last time you saw a pin located on a significant slope on a professional setup! I'm not saying place the pin where it is completely flat just to be more reasonable about it. For instance, #1 on Lunenberg is reasonable while #3 is not. I think the course is great and for the vast majority of the holes this isn't an issue, I just wanted to address it. |
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 13:28:47 GMT -5
Those are great rules for setting pin positions for high handicappers, not for setting professional courses. Please stop posting rules for setting up the local public course as guidelines for tournament course setup, because they couldn't be farther from the truth. Please tell me the last time you saw a pin located on a significant slope on a professional setup! I'm not saying place the pin where it is completely flat just to be more reasonable about it. For instance, #1 on Lunenberg is reasonable while #3 is not. I think the course is great and for the vast majority of the holes this isn't an issue, I just wanted to address it. A few years ago at the US Open, I think it was bethpage, but not sure. There was a par 3 that was so sloped and was cut so short that the pros literally couldn't keep the ball on the green. They had to douse the green with water. This was the last and only time that I can remember players complaining about it being unfair. I spent the first half of my life playing at Medinah CC, played No. 3 hundreds of times. Been a walking scorer at the Senior US Open, US Open, and 2 PGA Championships held there. I didn't volunteer but was out there for the Ryder Cup as well. Walked with Phil Mickelson when he was still an amateur. Although it doesn't look like it on TV, trust me when i say holes are on slopes. Again, not crazy, like if you dropped the ball it would roll 10 ft away. But certainly it's not out of the ordinary to have 5 ft putts break a foot or more. It's rare to actually have a straight putt. Specifically hole numbers 2,4,5,6,7,10,13,14,15,17,18 have pin placements with a lot of slope. Quite honestly the breaks I see on most of these courses in game are how the No. 2 (ladies) course are. And with how the public course down the street are. They do this to keep play fast, and to not frustrate the golfer who shoots in the 100s. |
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Post by fondername0 on Mar 10, 2015 14:54:25 GMT -5
I don't think he's talking about placing a pin on break. There are lots of old courses that slope from back to front and have no flat areas whatsoever, so that would be ridiculous.
I think he's talking about placing it on a slope, as in the middle of a tier or something like that. I personally have not seen that on any course I have played on here yet, so I don't know which course he is talking about. That is how I interpreted it anyway.
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Post by fondername0 on Mar 10, 2015 15:00:11 GMT -5
LOL  |
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Post by csugolfer60 on Mar 10, 2015 15:24:40 GMT -5
I've played a few USGA Championships and I can promise you they are on slopes. You have to be below the hole to stop your putt within 3 feet on some pins.
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Post by jaws1948 on Mar 10, 2015 15:37:08 GMT -5
In real life, I besides loving to play golf, I also love to work pro tournaments as a walking scorekeeper when they are fairly close to home. Last year, at the Women's US Open at Sabonac, I was walking next to the USGA referee and I asked about rules for cutting pins. She told me that the idea that there was a rule about cutting the hole too close to the edge of the green was a myth. As long as the player is allowed a backswing, the hole can be cut as close to the edge as the greenkeeper wishes. But, USGA RECOMMENDS that holes should not be placed too close to bunkers or other hazards and they should be placed so as to have a flat area for at least 3 feet all around the hole. That applies to amateur events. For the US Open, they put them close to or even on some slopes. Now, so much for real life. As someone said, this wouldn't work in a computer game. People would shoot the lights out. But anyway, I thought you fellows might enjoy what USGA has to say.
BTW, I worked the US Open at Bethpage both in 02 and in 09. The hole where they couldn't keep it on the green was the par 4 15th. During the practice round, the hole was cut in front of the green. Any shot, from any direction couldn't be stopped on the green. The ball would roll off the front edge and go down the hill into the rough. That was supposed to be the Sunday pin. Needless to say, USGA didn't use that pin and instead put the hole back right on a flat area on Sunday.
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Post by firstblitzer on Mar 10, 2015 15:58:28 GMT -5
LOL He smashed that first putt, got what he deserved. |
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Post by fondername0 on Mar 10, 2015 16:02:37 GMT -5
USGA Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green
There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater
USGA - Pin Placements
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Post by doublebogey on Mar 10, 2015 16:26:57 GMT -5
USGA Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green
There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater
USGA - Pin Placements
The recommended hole placements don't apply to tournament setup. Tournament officials pick hole locations to make the best tournament possible. They follow the rule that there is no rule on hole location. They don't care what's recommended. The recommendations are there to help public courses setup for the general public. |
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