Heavyweight Boxing

[BillySastard976]

Seriously, what has happened to the heavyweight division? I was lucky, being very old, to be able to watch Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Norton, Shavers, and others, then on to Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe etc, but the quality today and for a good decade has really gone downhill.

I like Fury, he is good for the sport but let's face it, his arse would be handed to him by any of the above.

[nevadaballin]

I grew up in the Ali, Frazier era as well. Used to root for then Cassius Clay every fight.

But the older I got, the more I lost interest in grown men punching each other in the face for money. UFC is even worse since they punch a person when they are down. Glorified bar fights imo.

It's all become incredibly barbaric to me. I understand I'm probably a minority in this opinion but that's fine

[lessthanbread]

Mar 8, 2020 21:08:37 GMT -5 nevadaballin said:

I grew up in the Ali, Frazier era as well. Used to root for then Cassius Clay every fight.

But the older I got, the more I lost interest in grown men punching each other in the face for money. UFC is even worse since they punch a person when they are down. Glorified bar fights imo.

It's all become incredibly barbaric to me. I understand I'm probably a minority in this opinion but that's fine

I am one that agrees with you Jimmy. The only fight in recent memory I was admittedly interested in was the McGregor-Mayweather fight. Just because it was a new perspective on the sport but that turned into a joke for the most part. There’s just way too much money in it now and it’s more about the show vs the actual sport of it. Not to take anything away from the athletes, they are all very talented and work very hard at what they do. But it’s just laughable when you see them talk so much trash and push each other around at the weigh in, then after the fight they're hugging each other like best friends... just no credibility in it

[linkslover]

Joshua v Fury will be awesome... provided Joshua beats Pulev and Fury beat Wilder in the rematch first.

[stokie1947]

Joshua v Fury will be awesome... provided Joshua beats Pulev and Fury beat Wilder in the rematch first.

really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[ezzinomilonga]

Is hard to follow boxe in these days.
Heavyweights especially. Between little talent available and the usual dirty stuff like referees and pilotated "roads to the belt(s)", they did everything to kill this glorious discipline in these years.

If we think at what (and who) we had the chance to saw just 20-10 years ago, it seems impossible to believe.

And..honestly..the simple fact that we should hope to see Joshua - Fury to have a "good" heavyweight fight, is only the easiest way to understand how disperately low is the level of this discipline.
Unfortunally, heavyweight boxe seems to be dead. Honestly i don't care too much, after all i always preferred other categories, in which is required more technic, speed, stamina..and a single punch is hardly enough to win..but is sad to see. (And the situation in the welters is not so better, anyway..at the moment..with the only difference that in the welters actually THERE ARE the good fighters for some great match for the title, but...they simply can't fight for the title cause is time to push other people..Old story.)

Anyway...i saw a bunch of great heavyweights in the past..and loving this discipline, in these years i had also the curiosity and the chance to see a lot of great fighters of the past..and, with no need to be too nostalgic and to make embarassing confrontations, i sincerely believe that Joshua is one of the most overrated (and, the worst thing, also strategically boring) boxeurs i ever saw to win the belt.
He has a single punch and is tall. That's all.
Ah no..He is also hard pumped by the media. And not only by the media (just look at the Olympic Games...).

About nostalgy..how it would be your hypotetical all time heavyweights top-5?

[LKeet6]

Honestly, I think this "it was better in the past" debate is an overused cliché, made by people who don't follow the sport super closely. (And nothing wrong with that!) And not sure why we would only look at the heavyweight division.

The main issue, by far, is that boxing has become a niche sport now. It's not kept up with the sports that have taken cable/satellite TV by storm, eg football (soccer) and all the American sports. The big fights would be on mainstream TV, and would be THE big event that weekend. That's no longer the case. But it doesn't mean there aren't great fighters and fights happening.

But anyway, here's the pros and cons to the argument that it was better in the good old days:

Pros:

- The best fought each other more often.
- The whole belt situation wasn't as ridiculous as it is now.
- It was still a huge sport in America, and the best fighters were superstars.

Cons:

- There was still loads of politics and corruption in the old days.
- Even the best fighters still had loads of taxi drivers on their record.
- It's more of a global sport now.

Maybe fury, wilder and Joshua aren't up to the standards of previous heavyweight champs (I honestly think fury is close,) but to have 3 who are that good is still saying something. And the depth is honestly amazing. Ruiz, usyk, Parker, Whyte, pulev, Ortiz, chisora, povetkin are all good fighters. And if you don't think so, you need to go and look at some of the bums Ali, Frazier and foreman fought!

I don't know how far back you guys go in the "it's not as good as anymore" debate, but was the late 90s and early 00s still good? Coz I can give you a list of fighters from then that stands up VERY well. The Mayweather and Pacquiao period, where Pac fought guys like Morales, Marquez, De la Hoya, cotto, Barrera, Mosely, and Mayweather fought a lot of the same guys, was an amazing division, with the best fighting each other.

The talent, throughout the divisions, is still there!

Canelo, GGG, lomachenko, Inoue, Crawford and Spence stand up well to ANY era. All fantastic fighters.

Boxing is in a good state right now, in terms of talent, and fights. It's just got a smaller audience and the belts situation makes it annoyingly abstract for people who just want to watch 2-3 big fights a year.

[ezzinomilonga]

I agree, often this debate is abused and actually is a cliché, but about some sport it can be made with some reason. Jusy to say..i think it would be crazy to say that soccer or basket were better before. Maybe it was more romantic, for sure, but the standard (both physical and technical) now is unreal. And i think this thing could be said about almost every sport. Now is better. On every point of view.
But boxe is one of those few sports in which i can say that before it was better. At least on heavyweights.
The situation with the belts, for example, is one of the reasons why i slowly started to see only the great events and to follow only those boxeurs (mainly welters) that i like.
Is simply grotesque to have 3-4 categories and belts on every weight.
About the heavyweights in detail, i think is also true that the level is, at the moment, pretty low. But i suppose is just a matter of cycles. I hope so.

But the bigger problem for me is the "philosophy" behind the fight seems to be changed. There is way less strategy and almost every boxeur is, right now, quite monodimensional, if this make sense.
They have a strategy and, if that doesn't work, they just can't find a way to win.
Joshua is the archetipe for me of this kind of boxeur.

Klitschko, for example, a kind of boxeur i don't love too much, at least he was a professor. A real professor. Conservative, but absolutely brilliant in his ability to read EVERYTHING of his opponent and to exploit EVERY flaw.
I like Fury, is a good fighter and a good guy, and he has also a flamboyant style of fight and i love it, but in a "normal" situation, he should be a great outsider, not "the Champ".

Anyway..about what you say about the fact that also in the past there was fixed matches and awful fighters..of course is true. But i don't believe the medium level was lower than now. At all. At least on heavyweights.

About the past, anyway..i'm not a huge fan of the "second" Mohammad Ali. The first was something never seen before, simply impossible to touch. The second was just a great fighter, way bigger and slower than before, but with a straripant charisma, who was able to receive more than 400 punches in a single fight (aboit this, i think that the second and, mainly, the third matches with Frazier are horror movies, not fights. I saw, in these matches, things hard to see also in the lower weight categories. Just crazy).
I'll be always a fan of the central american school of welters, anyway. All my idols are welters for a reason

[LKeet6]

I disagree on a lot of that vinny!

Klitschko was the DEFINITION of "one dimensional" in my opinion! Jab, hold, win on points.

Joshua may be not be an amazing fighter, but he completely changed his strategy for the second Ruiz fight, stayed disciplined, and won.

Completely disagree on fury. He'd give ANY of the great heavyweights a tough fight. Not necessarily beat them! But he'd be tough for all of them. He'd have 7 inches and 100 pounds over Ali! He's light on his feet, good head movement, good variety of punches.

Not sure the heavyweights is the best division to look at anyway, because there it is most of all about brute force and KOs. If you look at modern boxing in the light and middle weights, technically it's the best it's ever been.

From the first wave of modern boxing, with guys like Mayweather, pac, de la Hoya, Roy Jones Jr, calzaghe, cotto, winky Wright, Barrera, etc etc, to the modern boxers I listed in my comment above, they stand up to ANY era on technical ability.

In fact, I'd say NO sport has its history hyped up more than boxing. More than football or basketball. I think because they're like gladiators, heroes, they're remembered as these unbeatable titans, when really, boxing has moved on like all the other sports. The sports science and the training have improved, like other sports.

All the other points about the belts, money, TV, is a different argument. But I agree with you there.

I would also say about basketball and football, it's silly to compare eras too much. The great players would've adapted. Give them one season of playing in this time, to get healthier and adjust to the speed, and they'd be just as good.

But yeah, the games have improved, better pitches, better athletes, rules to help attacking players, same with basketball. But there's too much 3 point shooting now!

[ezzinomilonga]

Maybe is for my personal (not too long) experience on the ring (i started to train years ago to recover to an injury to my arm and shoulder, then i started to love it enough to train seriously until i started to fight as sparring partner for the more gifted and motivated guys..has been a great experience, i'm really happy i did it), but i always found and still find more difficult (and important) to learn how to defend properly against every kind of opponent, to find a way to "disactive" his best weapons AND, meanwhile, to find a way to not only survive, but to hit him and, possibly, to win.

Is this side of the fight that forced me, years ago, to recognize the greatness of Klitchko. Again, i don't like him..seriously. And, at the very start, i shared your same exact idea. But if you take a look to his opponents across the years and you watch carefully these matches, is almost unbelievable how good he was to disarm those guys.
And yes..you're totally right, he used mainly his jab. But you forget to say 2 things :
1) that his jab was one of the best jab i ever saw. Maybe one of the best of the history of boxe. Without any charging with his shoulder, he was able to make a lot of damages. A LOT.
2) In a category in which almost everyone fights looking for the chance to find the occasion for a single, definitive punch, his strategy is a white fly. Cause it requires patience, ice in your veins. Especialky when it happens that someoen find a breach in your defense, is so easy to let the rage, the fear, the emotuon in short, to pudh you to an open attack..an immediate "revenge". He..don't. Never.

And this thing, this stone cold attitude and his jab, as a side effect, had also that his opponents started, soon or later, to go so nervous that in the end they just losed their patience, the correct position to keep, until a breach in their defense was open. And THEN, only then, he killed them. With a pair of punches well aimed.

This is not monodimensionality. This is strategy elevated to science. Is different.

About Joshua, i intentionally missed to talk about the match with Ruiz, cause i think he simply shamefully undervalued his opponent. In the second match, he simply respected him enough to fight seriously. Is only on second instance, a matters of adjustments.

Anyway..i agree totally with you. Maybe heavyweights are more exciting, but the real boxe is another one.

Your favorite fighters every time?

[ezzinomilonga]

Ah..and about Fury..maybe i should be more clear.
Potentially, i agree totally with you. He could be one of the best boxeurs i ever saw. He has speed, stamina, is tall, has courage, flamboyancy, he's a pleasure to see. And he knows how to be loved by the people. Something priceless.

But..and unfortunally this is the greatest possible BUT in this discipline, he miss the HEAD.
His career talks for him.

Honestly..after he should be the champ, hypotetically..in your opinion, how many defenses of the title he could prepare seriously before to just stop doing things in the right way and restart to do stupid things?
I think at least 2. Maybe. And only if he should respect enough his opponent.

To be a great fighter is a thing. And he is.
To be a champ..THE CHAMP..is totally another thing. And he could never be, in my opinion.

This was the reason why i said he could be a great outsider in every time, even in situations of more gifted fighters than now. That kind of fighter that could beat everyone..but that could lose against everyone.

[LKeet6]

Mar 29, 2020 9:43:02 GMT -5 ezzinomilonga said:

Maybe is for my personal (not too long) experience on the ring (i started to train years ago to recover to an injury to my arm and shoulder, then i started to love it enough to train seriously until i started to fight as sparring partner for the more gifted and motivated guys..has been a great experience, i'm really happy i did it), but i always found and still find more difficult (and important) to learn how to defend properly against every kind of opponent, to find a way to "disactive" his best weapons AND, meanwhile, to find a way to not only survive, but to hit him and, possibly, to win.

Is this side of the fight that forced me, years ago, to recognize the greatness of Klitchko. Again, i don't like him..seriously. And, at the very start, i shared your same exact idea. But if you take a look to his opponents across the years and you watch carefully these matches, is almost unbelievable how good he was to disarm those guys.
And yes..you're totally right, he used mainly his jab. But you forget to say 2 things :
1) that his jab was one of the best jab i ever saw. Maybe one of the best of the history of boxe. Without any charging with his shoulder, he was able to make a lot of damages. A LOT.
2) In a category in which almost everyone fights looking for the chance to find the occasion for a single, definitive punch, his strategy is a white fly. Cause it requires patience, ice in your veins. Especialky when it happens that someoen find a breach in your defense, is so easy to let the rage, the fear, the emotuon in short, to pudh you to an open attack..an immediate "revenge". He..don't. Never.

And this thing, this stone cold attitude and his jab, as a side effect, had also that his opponents started, soon or later, to go so nervous that in the end they just losed their patience, the correct position to keep, until a breach in their defense was open. And THEN, only then, he killed them. With a pair of punches well aimed.

This is not monodimensionality. This is strategy elevated to science. Is different.

About Joshua, i intentionally missed to talk about the match with Ruiz, cause i think he simply shamefully undervalued his opponent. In the second match, he simply respected him enough to fight seriously. Is only on second instance, a matters of adjustments.

Anyway..i agree totally with you. Maybe heavyweights are more exciting, but the real boxe is another one.

Your favorite fighters every time?

That's cool you've done some boxing! I did a little bit as a kid, to improve my confidence. It helped me, but maybe did it at the wrong time. The gloves were SO heavy for a small kid like I was at the time. I stopped when I was like 14, and then started a huge growth spurt when I was 15-16. Should've got back into it then!

Hey, I respect Klitschko! Great fighter. I kind of agree with what you're saying about figuring out your opponent, but ALL fighters have to do that. Yes, he was particularly good at it. But "dimensions" means how many different ways can they attack and defend, variation. He had zero variation. That's how I see it, anyway.

What does your "favourite fighters" question mean? Do I always prefer other weights, or who are my favourite fighters?

[LKeet6]

Mar 29, 2020 9:53:47 GMT -5 ezzinomilonga said:

Ah..and about Fury..maybe i should be more clear.
Potentially, i agree totally with you. He could be one of the best boxeurs i ever saw. He has speed, stamina, is tall, has courage, flamboyancy, he's a pleasure to see. And he knows how to be loved by the people. Something priceless.

But..and unfortunally this is the greatest possible BUT in this discipline, he miss the HEAD.
His career talks for him.

Honestly..after he should be the champ, hypotetically..in your opinion, how many defenses of the title he could prepare seriously before to just stop doing things in the right way and restart to do stupid things?
I think at least 2. Maybe. And only if he should respect enough his opponent.

To be a great fighter is a thing. And he is.
To be a champ..THE CHAMP..is totally another thing. And he could never be, in my opinion.

This was the reason why i said he could be a great outsider in every time, even in situations of more gifted fighters than now. That kind of fighter that could beat everyone..but that could lose against everyone.

Fury had mental health issues. He seems to be over it now. I'm pretty sure he only wants 2-3 more fights now anyway, and then will end his career. I hope he becomes a trainer or stays in the game, because he needs to keep active, or the depression could come back. Looks like he's going to try wrestling as well, which would be good for him.

Honestly, I think his performance against wilder in the first fight doesn't get enough attention. Well, it kind of does, but not as much as it should. Considering how long he'd been out of the ring, only just lost all the weight and very rusty, it was an incredible performance. And getting up in the 12th is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in sport.

If he can defeat wilder again and then beat joshua, both of which I think will happen, he's had an incredible career.

[ezzinomilonga]

I still hate the gloves. But way much more i hate the helmets. Those f***ed helmets!! I remember i felt my whole brain soooo compressed...and my ears were always whistling, for some reason.

You know..maybe..in another life..i should try this career. But i always loved to much drugs, cigarettes..all those things that has nothing to do with an athlete's life..so in short i never had this choice to make.
Furthermore..to fight "properly"..seriously..i really need to hate my opponent..otherwise i just can't focus enough. But i was good enough. I have big hands, great shoulders and chest..fast feet and great reflexes..and, most important thing, probably, i have no fear at all to be punched.

And now..after so many years, i must admit that not only this has been a great experience..but i wish i tried this thing when i was just a kid..instead than a well grown boy (i did this after my 20s, for 3 years more or less).
I raised in a place in which you MUST to fight..or at least to be ready to fight, if you don't want to be smashed by other guys and to see your social life killed, being disrespected by anyone.
When i was just a kid (10-14 years, i mean) i was scared to death by the simple idea to fight with someone else. But i learned, finally. Just to survive..initially..but you want to know the truth? I must admit i love to fight, when it happens i find someone i can hate enough. In Fight Club, the movie, Tyler says a great truth : after a fight, everything loses importance. Everything is different. Lighter.
And, other 2 great lessons i learned, are that the pain often is almost never so terrible how you could imagine. Is the fear, that can make it terrible, in your head.
And i also learned that power, strenght, hate, rage..all these things are nothing without control. Your head is always stronger than your fists.

Boxe is a great school of life.

And yes..i asked for your favorite fighters. Not category. Just the names.

[LKeet6]

Great post Vinny

My favourites are: Ali, Benn, eubank, Naseem, Eamon magee, Roy Jones Jr, Pacquiao, Kelly pavlik, khan, Fury. Might have missed a couple.

There's loads I admire, but maybe don't have an emotional connection to. I'm starting to be a real fan of lomachenko.