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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 10, 2019 20:11:14 GMT -5
Hi.
I'm kinda new and only have 8 weeks of editing experience, off and on. I'm finishing up my first course.
Anyway, I'm just wondering how deep to make bunkers to make them challenging, but not unfair or ridiculously deep? 3 feet? More? Less?
I'm also wondering if it's okay to add a single 'thin' tree in the middle of the fairway as a fair obstacle, which leaves enough room for both left and right pathways to the green? Or is that considered unfair? How much of the approach shot's pathway is it 'fair' to take away via a thin obstacle?
Any input would be appreciated.
(Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum, I couldn't find a better alternative after looking)
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Post by Oscar C on Sept 10, 2019 20:22:33 GMT -5
HI noobgolfer , and welcome to the forums. Firstly bunkers - look there is no right or wrong answer but i will say this. The location of the bunker and its intended purpose is what drives the depth, for example a fairway bunker should not necessarily be deep, its intention is to catch a stray drive and the penalty is that you probably cant reach the green in 2 now (on a par4). So therefore a medium or even flatish bunker is ok. Around the green thats different, the penalty there is now you have to get close to the pin from the bunker - doesnt mean a lip above your head is needed it just means that a deeper bunker presenting a challnge to get close is fair play. Now the tree - personally i think the tree is not a good idea in the middle of the fairway. I agree put a hazard that someone waants to avoid but my personal choice isnt a tree, its a bunker or a waste are of rough/shrubs/rocks etc. Note all of these are just MY OPINION, its your course mate go for it but from a playability and tour worthyness i think my suggestions will help.
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MAJORHIGH
Weekend Golfer
PC: MAJORHIGH
Posts: 146
TGCT Name: Chris Lane
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by MAJORHIGH on Sept 10, 2019 20:23:21 GMT -5
Anywhere from a few inches, ala Pete Dye, to Road Hole deep if designing a links course
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 10, 2019 21:37:28 GMT -5
HI noobgolfer , and welcome to the forums. Firstly bunkers - look there is no right or wrong answer but i will say this. The location of the bunker and its intended purpose is what drives the depth, for example a fairway bunker should not necessarily be deep, its intention is to catch a stray drive and the penalty is that you probably cant reach the green in 2 now (on a par4). So therefore a medium or even flatish bunker is ok. Around the green thats different, the penalty there is now you have to get close to the pin from the bunker - doesnt mean a lip above your head is needed it just means that a deeper bunker presenting a challnge to get close is fair play. Now the tree - personally i think the tree is not a good idea in the middle of the fairway. I agree put a hazard that someone waants to avoid but my personal choice isnt a tree, its a bunker or a waste are of rough/shrubs/rocks etc. Note all of these are just MY OPINION, its your course mate go for it but from a playability and tour worthyness i think my suggestions will help. Thanks for the great input. I'll definitely keep those things in mind, especially the tree comments. :-)
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 10, 2019 21:44:15 GMT -5
Anywhere from a few inches, ala Pete Dye, to Road Hole deep if designing a links course Thanks again, appreciate the responses today.
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Post by Riotous on Sept 11, 2019 2:07:02 GMT -5
Be careful when sculpting bunkers. The sand doesn’t naturally lay at ground level in the game, don’t know why. Even if you sculpt at +0.6 inches you will still be lowering the sand in the bunker
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Sept 11, 2019 5:20:24 GMT -5
this video is one technique, and he does a good job explaining his thought process.
Canucks 101 is a must for anyone just getting their feet wet.
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Post by cephyn on Sept 11, 2019 9:04:17 GMT -5
Hi. I'm kinda new and only have 8 weeks of editing experience, off and on. I'm finishing up my first course. Anyway, I'm just wondering how deep to make bunkers to make them challenging, but not unfair or ridiculously deep? 3 feet? More? Less? I'm also wondering if it's okay to add a single 'thin' tree in the middle of the fairway as a fair obstacle, which leaves enough room for both left and right pathways to the green? Or is that considered unfair? How much of the approach shot's pathway is it 'fair' to take away via a thin obstacle? Any input would be appreciated. (Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum, I couldn't find a better alternative after looking) Regarding the tree - there's nothing wrong with it as long as the feature "makes sense" - that's the art of it. Plenty of very famous and beloved courses have trees as obstructions in the middle of the fairway. The first one that comes to my mind is the 18th at Pebble Beach, considered one of the best finishing holes in golf. Don't make it a habit across the whole course, but once in a while it can be a great way to make a hole stand out. www.pebblebeach.com/content/uploads/Pebble-Beach-18H-0111-0032-8-x-12-JD.jpg
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Post by lessthanbread on Sept 11, 2019 9:52:26 GMT -5
I'd say do a lot of playtesting from your bunkers and find what works and what you think is challenging enough. I always make greenside bunkers deeper than fairway bunkers as I'm sure most do. I really try as hard as I can to make my greens still reachable from all my fairway bunkers (not including par 5's) but easier said than done if someone gets plugged on a medium-long par 4 and depending on where the wind is going. With that, it's important to not make your fairway bunkers too deep so a player can still use a mid-long iron to get out and still have a shot at the green or at least to a fair layup area.
Overall in my opinion it's not so much the depth of a bunker that makes it challenging, it's more the slope/distance of the green between the bunker and the cup. Most players worth their salt will be able to get out of deep bunkers without much problem but controlling the roll out and playing the green slope after is where the challenge lies
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 11:45:59 GMT -5
Another tip no one really mentioned yet is to try to give most of your bunkers a 'high side' and a 'low side. This naturally helps to add depth while avoiding the usually-dreaded 'bathtub' sculpting style. A lot of very deep bunkers aren't actually all that deep from the low side, it's the terrain they're built into that makes them deep. Here's one 'demonstration:' I have a bunker for you that sits just below the terrain it's in. steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295970/DC56BB5B9F8AC0563940D1F314C0DA5E8621230C/The bunker itself is not very 'deep' but you can see a bit of that hill towards the left. How deep is it? steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295543/F577C8AF7617058FBA93E97E2658456B47E6424F/steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295872/4099132D280AE4A893F09C084617BCAC8150AE91/It actually sits a full 10ft below the putting surface. Now I am by no means saying this is the only way or the best way to give bunkers depth, or that my still limited skills with the designer provide the best demonstration, but this example illustrates my point nonetheless. The recent LiDAR course I did, Black Rock, is an excellent example of how the land can define a bunker rather than the other way around. If you play some of that course (preferably the tour version if you do since it's really an 'improved' version) I was heavily inspired by the bunker style on that course and have been trying to incorporate bits and pieces of it into my fictional course. There are many other good examples (any course by mattF, Mayday, Reebdoog would more than suffice), so when in doubt just play courses by more experienced designers and borrow / steal ideas from them.
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 12, 2019 9:45:52 GMT -5
I'd say do a lot of playtesting from your bunkers and find what works and what you think is challenging enough. I always make greenside bunkers deeper than fairway bunkers as I'm sure most do. I really try as hard as I can to make my greens still reachable from all my fairway bunkers (not including par 5's) but easier said than done if someone gets plugged on a medium-long par 4 and depending on where the wind is going. With that, it's important to not make your fairway bunkers too deep so a player can still use a mid-long iron to get out and still have a shot at the green or at least to a fair layup area. Overall in my opinion it's not so much the depth of a bunker that makes it challenging, it's more the slope/distance of the green between the bunker and the cup. Most players worth their salt will be able to get out of deep bunkers without much problem but controlling the roll out and playing the green slope after is where the challenge lies Thanks for explaining in such detail, that really makes sense. I'm now starting to understand the 'reasoning' for bunkers better.
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 12, 2019 9:50:42 GMT -5
Another tip no one really mentioned yet is to try to give most of your bunkers a 'high side' and a 'low side. This naturally helps to add depth while avoiding the usually-dreaded 'bathtub' sculpting style. A lot of very deep bunkers aren't actually all that deep from the low side, it's the terrain they're built into that makes them deep. Here's one 'demonstration:' I have a bunker for you that sits just below the terrain it's in. steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295970/DC56BB5B9F8AC0563940D1F314C0DA5E8621230C/The bunker itself is not very 'deep' but you can see a bit of that hill towards the left. How deep is it? steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295543/F577C8AF7617058FBA93E97E2658456B47E6424F/steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/775105243413295872/4099132D280AE4A893F09C084617BCAC8150AE91/It actually sits a full 10ft below the putting surface. Now I am by no means saying this is the only way or the best way to give bunkers depth, or that my still limited skills with the designer provide the best demonstration, but this example illustrates my point nonetheless. The recent LiDAR course I did, Black Rock, is an excellent example of how the land can define a bunker rather than the other way around. If you play some of that course (preferably the tour version if you do since it's really an 'improved' version) I was heavily inspired by the bunker style on that course and have been trying to incorporate bits and pieces of it into my fictional course. There are many other good examples (any course by mattF, Mayday, Reebdoog would more than suffice), so when in doubt just play courses by more experienced designers and borrow / steal ideas from them. Wow. Awesome sculpting on those courses and bunkers. They really have good visual impact too. I'll definitely try playing a few new courses from good designers, while paying attention to such things as you mentioned. Thanks for that info.
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 12, 2019 9:58:58 GMT -5
Hi. I'm kinda new and only have 8 weeks of editing experience, off and on. I'm finishing up my first course. Anyway, I'm just wondering how deep to make bunkers to make them challenging, but not unfair or ridiculously deep? 3 feet? More? Less? I'm also wondering if it's okay to add a single 'thin' tree in the middle of the fairway as a fair obstacle, which leaves enough room for both left and right pathways to the green? Or is that considered unfair? How much of the approach shot's pathway is it 'fair' to take away via a thin obstacle? Any input would be appreciated. (Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum, I couldn't find a better alternative after looking) Regarding the tree - there's nothing wrong with it as long as the feature "makes sense" - that's the art of it. Plenty of very famous and beloved courses have trees as obstructions in the middle of the fairway. The first one that comes to my mind is the 18th at Pebble Beach, considered one of the best finishing holes in golf. Don't make it a habit across the whole course, but once in a while it can be a great way to make a hole stand out. www.pebblebeach.com/content/uploads/Pebble-Beach-18H-0111-0032-8-x-12-JD.jpgI definitely understand what you're saying. I should only do it when it can visually make sense for the particular whole, or to enhance a particular hole once in a great while. I'll try not to do it so much that it looks like I'm being repetitive or gimmicky with it. Thanks for the explanation.
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 12, 2019 10:18:47 GMT -5
this video is one technique, and he does a good job explaining his thought process. Canucks 101 is a must for anyone just getting their feet wet. Awesome video! Just watched a few minutes and was impressed with how you use splines and lots of distance markers to map out such good shapes for greens, fairways and bunkers. I'll definitely be using distance markers more from now on, and splines too. I was previously staying away from splines because I didn't realize they could generate such clean and visually appealing shapes. But now I see that they are the best way for making custom and unique shapes. I'm just really into 'clean' looking graphics and lines, coming from a general graphics background myself. I'll definitely be practicing with splines to get better. Much appreciated. I'll also check out Canuck's video for sure, to see what I can pick up.
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Post by noobgolfer on Sept 12, 2019 10:20:57 GMT -5
Be careful when sculpting bunkers. The sand doesn’t naturally lay at ground level in the game, don’t know why. Even if you sculpt at +0.6 inches you will still be lowering the sand in the bunker Thanks for alerting me to that. I didn't pick up on that fact myself. But I'll be mindful of it from now on.
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