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Post by tottenhamordie on Sept 11, 2019 20:38:58 GMT -5
with that being said, can someone explain to me how this course; A) won a competition and B) was deemed tour worthy? there are at least 5 holes with illegal pin locations, at least how i understand it in the database rules. idk who the designer is, but i can only assume its someone in the "in crowd" that every claims to not know exists on here. seeing stuff like this, and then knowing how much time i put into play testing and redesigning my rookie course, because of pin locations is a huge demoralizer for the effort put in. i could have just left pins 2 yards from the fairway, and on yellow slopes and save myself 50 play tests and hours of time. the course is actually interesting, but i just dont get this whole "well this is johns course and its awesome" mentality in this community.
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Post by cseanny on Sept 11, 2019 22:28:39 GMT -5
tottenhamordie Pages 2 and 3 of this forum were discussing BCT, skill level, and appropriate tour choice. You and I in the same twitch channel earlier simply added more layers to an already existing issue, which is also whispered about in many other twitch and forum conversations. I say the following not to come off aggressive, but rather, to provide clarity and facts. In twitch you disliked a random person you've never heard of scoring well (me). You disliked the top BCT players who seemingly never missed putts, greens, fairways, and whom, at no time, played bad rounds. You disliked this hole. You disliked that hole. You disliked your approach. You disliked your putt. You especially disliked how you practiced well but were performing poorly in the tournament.
I don't think there was a single area in the realm of BCT golf which didn't cause you aggravation. My point? I'm not basing my decision to leave BCT due to your bad day. Again, I'm stating this without negative tone or aggression towards you. My paramount concern is with fair play, competition, and the community as a whole. Now here is where I come off sounding a bit strange, but so be it!!!, because it's what I prefer. In regards to other tours, first and foremost, I do not want to play without exact wind. Why? Because I am CHART guy. There's plenty of people on this forum who know all about this, and for this reason I will not play on the Pro Tours. Due to my own stubbornness, that only leaves TST and BCT; bct having known elites like McCord and ohheyjude. Ohheyjude and I had some discussion regarding the lowest score on his putt-putt course which I jumped to meet the challenge. I figured the BCT would be more of the same. Naturally, before joining BCT I had asked Ohheyjude, VictoryLane, and some others their thoughts on the tour. I only played TST for a single event, and truth be told, I find it unpleasant to play.
So where does that leave me? With no tour . Of course, I can always join and play in some fun events from DAM, other societies, or play fun matches with friends.
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Post by catcherman22 on Sept 11, 2019 22:50:46 GMT -5
with that being said, can someone explain to me how this course; A) won a competition and B) was deemed tour worthy? there are at least 5 holes with illegal pin locations, at least how i understand it in the database rules. idk who the designer is, but i can only assume its someone in the "in crowd" that every claims to not know exists on here. seeing stuff like this, and then knowing how much time i put into play testing and redesigning my rookie course, because of pin locations is a huge demoralizer for the effort put in. i could have just left pins 2 yards from the fairway, and on yellow slopes and save myself 50 play tests and hours of time. the course is actually interesting, but i just dont get this whole "well this is johns course and its awesome" mentality in this community. Ahhhh didn't take long for the "in crowd" to start... Please submit pics of illegal pins... this was rangered and I didn't notice any myself.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Sept 11, 2019 22:57:28 GMT -5
tottenhamordie Pages 2 and 3 of this forum were discussing BCT, skill level, and appropriate tour choice. You and I in the same twitch channel earlier simply added more layers to an already existing issue, which is also whispered about in many other twitch and forum conversations. I say the following not to come off aggressive, but rather, to provide clarity and facts. In twitch you disliked a random person you've never heard of scoring well (me). You disliked the top BCT players who seemingly never missed putts, greens, fairways, and whom, at no time, played bad rounds. You disliked this hole. You disliked that hole. You disliked your approach. You disliked your putt. You especially disliked how you practiced well but were performing poorly in the tournament.
I don't think there was a single area in the realm of BCT golf which didn't cause you aggravation. My point? I'm not basing my decision to leave BCT due to your bad day. Again, I'm stating this without negative tone or aggression towards you. My paramount concern is with fair play, competition, and the community as a whole. Now here is where I come off sounding a bit strange, but so be it!!!, because it's what I prefer. In regards to other tours, first and foremost, I do not want to play without exact wind. Why? Because I am CHART guy. There's plenty of people on this forum who know all about this, and for this reason I will not play on the Pro Tours. Due to my own stubbornness, that only leaves TST and BCT; bct having known elites like McCord and ohheyjude. Ohheyjude and I had some discussion regarding the lowest score on his putt-putt course which I jumped to meet the challenge. I figured the BCT would be more of the same. Naturally, before joining BCT I had asked Ohheyjude, VictoryLane, and some others their thoughts on the tour. I only played TST for a single event, and truth be told, I find it unpleasant to play.
So where does that leave me? With no tour . Of course, I can always join and play in some fun events from DAM, other societies, or play fun matches with friends.
you can dislike something and still have fun, not sure if you realize that. and your post, which has the same wording from twitch chat, just happened to be right after the stream ended, but thats just a coincidence. and again, the frustration doesnt come from people shooting well, it comes from people talking about how hard, or tough, or how they missed, and still shoot -15 every round. ill use twitch chat as a perfect example, you said "the pins this round are tricky", i said "tell that to the dude who shot -15 and is already -30 in 2 rounds", and you said "oh thats me lol *smiley face*". perfect example of the issues discussed here, this humble bs when you shoot scores others would kill for, not only once but all 4 rounds lol. and just stop with the pitiful "i am leaving the tour and have no tour now". just stay, no one cares what you shoot, thats not the point here. people seem to be missing the original point, its not how you shoot, its not how experienced you are, its the humble "oh man i did so bad", and then still winning the event with -50 and -60 scores. no one wants to hear you beat yourself down just to basically boast about how well you did on this "tricky" course. if it really was tricky, if it really was hard, if you really left some strokes out there, then you wouldnt be -62. thats why we have an issue with it, you are humble bragging, then back tracking and saying "oh it wasnt meant to be cocky or anything". thats exactly what it is, you are making it sound like it was soooo hard, and then casually putting your score out there, like people cant just see the score on the tgctours leaderboard any way. i am just so tired of the passive aggressive, clever wording culture on here. and maybe thats why people get so uppity when i call it like i see it, because im not the type to dance around a topic so i can have deniability later on. id rather just say how i feel and be done with it. thats why is seems like im "frustrated" by everything, because you are used to the fairy tale land in this community where everything is sunshine and rainbows, where no one actually says what they feel, or is allowed to make negative comments without a hoard of backlash.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Sept 11, 2019 22:58:19 GMT -5
with that being said, can someone explain to me how this course; A) won a competition and B) was deemed tour worthy? there are at least 5 holes with illegal pin locations, at least how i understand it in the database rules. idk who the designer is, but i can only assume its someone in the "in crowd" that every claims to not know exists on here. seeing stuff like this, and then knowing how much time i put into play testing and redesigning my rookie course, because of pin locations is a huge demoralizer for the effort put in. i could have just left pins 2 yards from the fairway, and on yellow slopes and save myself 50 play tests and hours of time. the course is actually interesting, but i just dont get this whole "well this is johns course and its awesome" mentality in this community. Ahhhh didn't take long for the "in crowd" to start... Please submit pics of illegal pins... this was rangered and I didn't notice any myself.
ok, ill go back and play all 4 pins and find them
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Post by cseanny on Sept 12, 2019 0:18:19 GMT -5
tottenhamordie You need to tap the brakes man. I never came close, not even a hint of stating I played poorly, nor did I promulgate any humble brags. You realize our whole conversation is on twitch yes? It's easy enough to verify. - You say something regarding: "yeah, r2 pins are tricky, tell that to this dude that shot -15....." ( YOU are the one who brought up -15!) - My response: "That's me." "-15 with a bogey on the last par 5". That was my testament to how tricky the R2 pins were, with that sneaky, front sloping pin placement. There was no smiley face, and even if there were, that would be acknowledging that I played well, NOT complaining how much better I could have shot. Also note, if you go to the 17:22 and 18:14 time stamps, you can see me, very clearly stating that R3 was my best round, or simply put, "I played well". Again, NEVER, anywhere in the entire twitch conversation, nor in this BCT forum have I stated, alluded, or even slightly insinuated that I played poorly, and poor, sad, and unlucky me for not shooting -20 strokes better. The rest of your post is a miserable attempt to preemptively direct the conversation to the trajectory you want it on, with nothing more than presupposition, philosophy, and RHETORIC. You'll do well to stick with the facts, especially when the truth is in plain site for everyone to see.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Sept 12, 2019 0:34:54 GMT -5
tottenhamordie You need to tap the brakes man. I never came close, not even a hint of stating I played poorly, nor did I promulgate any humble brags. You realize our whole conversation is on twitch yes? It's easy enough to verify. - You say something regarding: "yeah, r2 pins are tricky, tell that to this dude that shot -15....." ( YOU are the one who brought up -15!) - My response: "That's me." "-15 with a bogey on the last par 5". That was my testament to how tricky the R2 pins were, with that sneaky, front sloping pin placement. There was no smiley face, and even if there were, that would be acknowledging that I played well, NOT complaining how much better I could have shot. Also note, if you go to the 17:22 and 18:14 time stamps, you can see me, very clearly stating that R3 was my best round, or simply put, "I played well". Again, NEVER, anywhere in the entire twitch conversation, nor in this BCT forum have I stated, alluded, or even slightly insinuated that I played poorly, and poor, sad, and unlucky me for not shooting -20 strokes better. The rest of your post is a miserable attempt to preemptively direct the conversation to the trajectory you want it on, with nothing more than presupposition, philosophy, and RHETORIC. You'll do well to stick with the facts, especially when the truth is in plain site for everyone to see.
you said "the R2 pins are tricky"
i said "ya they are tricky, tell that to the dude whos -30 thru 2 rounds"
you said "thats me"
i never said that you said you played poorly, i said thats our original issue with this tour. not the scores, the people saying its hard, tricky, or how bad they did, but still shoot -15 and lower. saying its tricky, and then shooting -15 is a humble brag. you are basically saying its tricky, and following it up with your round scores. just say its tricky but for a boss like me a still shoot -15. dont insinuate its hard, or tricky, and then gleefully announce the next minute that its you whos at -30 in 2 rounds. i also said people were calling round 3 "survivor mode", to which you replied something about it being your best round, with easy eagle chances, which i also didnt experience. while also not missing a chance to basically boast about how you have perfected the 30 yard fade/draw and other aspects of the shot shape, while watching us play at an obvious lower level of play.
for the 100th time, no one cares about your scores, thats not why we get frustrated. call it humble brags, call it whatever you want. that just alludes to my previous statement about clever wording, passive statements, and just plain acting aloof for the sake of deniability. i would rather some dude act cocky over seeing dudes act like its tough and still shoot ungodly scores. tear your play down, to then build yourself up with unrealistic, cartoon score lines lol. im done.
edit: apologies, you didnt put a smiley face. but while watching the vod you did exactly what im talking about, "-15 with a bogey on the last hole", why even add that in there? -15 is already great, why is the bogey on 18 relevant? for anything other than "-15 was ok, but it couldve been -16". to dudes who are barely breaking -10 on a good day.....
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Post by cseanny on Sept 12, 2019 0:57:13 GMT -5
-15 is great. I said nothing to the contrary. The conversation was specifically related to tricky pins and my bogey comment was telling you just that.
edit: To anyone following our conversation, Tott and I have are having cordial and friendly conversation on Twitch, as we speak. All is well.
cheers.
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Post by welikeitroughnc on Sept 12, 2019 2:27:21 GMT -5
Just wondering if I should even finish my final two rounds at this rate... I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes or hunt anyone’s pride here, I’m probably good enough to play on much higher tours but I honestly hate much of the bs that comes with them as far as playing conditions and sour threads on here....
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grey3eard
Weekend Golfer
I am a Grandad in his early fifties who enjoys playing video game golf!
Posts: 98
TGCT Name: Mark Hale
Tour: Beer League
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Post by grey3eard on Sept 12, 2019 2:32:42 GMT -5
Round 2 & 3 Highlights.......
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Post by tottenhamordie on Sept 12, 2019 3:47:34 GMT -5
Just wondering if I should even finish my final two rounds at this rate... I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes or hunt anyone’s pride here, I’m probably good enough to play on much higher tours but I honestly hate much of the bs that comes with them as far as playing conditions and sour threads on here....
if you want to be here, just play here. no ones pride is being hurt, and you arent stepping on toes. if you are that good, play the rounds and prove it. i am not repeating myself anymore on here, if you cant read, or understand the real issue thats been repeated like 5 times, then idk what to tell ya. happy hunting.
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grey3eard
Weekend Golfer
I am a Grandad in his early fifties who enjoys playing video game golf!
Posts: 98
TGCT Name: Mark Hale
Tour: Beer League
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Post by grey3eard on Sept 12, 2019 5:34:09 GMT -5
Just wondering if I should even finish my final two rounds at this rate... I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes or hunt anyone’s pride here, I’m probably good enough to play on much higher tours but I honestly hate much of the bs that comes with them as far as playing conditions and sour threads on here.... Carry on Mitch and play your rounds…..and to cseanny , stay and carry on playing. It doesn’t matter to me who wins and by how many, I’m here to be part of a community that enjoys playing golf and I'm just trying to concentrate on my own performance and be the best player I can possibly be. To be honest, seeing low scores on the leaderboard gives me hope that one day I can do the same and hopefully win an event, it pushes me to be a better player.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Sept 12, 2019 7:26:41 GMT -5
Carry on Mitch and play your rounds…..and to cseanny , stay and carry on playing. It doesn’t matter to me who wins and by how many, I’m here to be a part of a community that enjoys playing golf and just trying to concentrate on my own performance and be the best player I can possibly be. To be honest, seeing low scores on the leaderboard gives me hope that one day I can do the same and hopefully win an event, it pushes me to be a better player. ^^ This! That's a great attitude to have Mark. As to other points that have been recently discussed in this thread: * cseanny Incredible shooting on a challenging track. Hopefully your decision to stay or go is totally based on your personal experience, not any blow back you have received. Play the game the way you enjoy playing the game and to hell with the rest. If you had fun this week, feel free to keep coming on back. I feel your frustration about the winds. CC-A is as high as you can go w/ them still on. Play where you enjoy the game the most. * As has been stated in this thread, this tour is for players of all abilities. There is no player too good or too new that doesn't belong here if he or she chooses to play here. If newer players want to play with golfers of similar ability in the tour rounds, then going through Q-School with pro clubs and landing somewhere in the CC-Am ranks will likely provide the best experience for them. Personally -- and this goes part and parcel with us having our own society -- my wish would be for this tour to be a true standalone tour, a la TST, that you can play while maintaining your status on the regular tours. Just like TST, BCT is much less about ability level and more about a different style of playing this game. If that ever did happen, I suspect you would see more high-end players on this tour, which would be fine by me. * This course is challenging on beginner clubs, but we all play the same course. As for "illegal pins," I don't recall seeing any in my rounds, and I would have noticed because I would have given the designer some playful ribbing for it if I had. When playing, what your green grid shows is entirely dependent on your location in relation to the hole, whereas in the designer you only see the grid from one angle. So a pin that looks fine in the designer could have yellow pop up in game. Yes, playtesting mitigates the chances of having this happen, but you could playtest a course 50 times (or roughly 12 times/pinset) and on the 51st play through hit to an angle that you haven't previously and, viola, yellow creeps into the 9-box. Same thing in rangering, as well as these courses are vetted, the rangers are volunteers and only have so much time to try to vet courses for five different main tours per week. That may mean only a handful of plays on a particular pinset and, as just discussed a pin that looks fine in one angle might have some yellow in another. It's an imperfect system, but it's the best system we have given the limitations of this game. * Having played all the top 10 courses in the CC comp, St. Cyrus was unquestionably a worthy winner. Aside from my own course, it was my favorite in the entire competition. I'm a sucker for a course that has width and angles, and this course definitely has that. Sure, you could just pull out the driver and bash it down the middle without much care, but that's not always the best play and may leave you shots into pins that are tucked. But, if you study the hole and make a plan of attack based on where the pin's located, you can play to spots that give you better angles into the pin. Example, hole 3. We're never driving that thing on beginner clubs, so I've got to find a good layup spot. The green, in addition to having a big swale in the middle, generally slopes left to right, making any approach coming in from the left (where the playing corridor takes your eye), much more difficult to hold, even with a full wedge. When the pin was on the left, I actually ended up playing down the fairway running parallel to the hole on the right, leaving me an uphill approach with a full wedge. This course is loaded with those decisions, which I love. I get that some may enjoy playing on autopilot, and I'm sure we'll have courses on tour this year that are dart fests, but I enjoyed the challenge this week, even though I was frustrated with my play and some unlucky breaks that befell me. * I've been in the judging war room in the past and can unequivocally say that discussions are about the courses and not who designed them. It's definitely not, "Joe Schlbotnik designed this course. We like Joe. Joe wins." Debates in the war room are passionate and thought provoking, pointing out things judges loved and/or hated about a particular course. Opinions are strong, and certainly not all the judges agree but, at the end of the day a winner emerges. Courses are thoroughly vetted and the judge's time commitment in a contest can push well in excess of 80 hours between playing courses, providing feedback and participating in the group discussion -- all of this volunteer, BTW. At the end of the day, they do a great job and almost always get it right. In all my time here, I can think of only one instance that had me thinking, "HTF did that course win?" and it definitely wasn't in this contest. * Finally, my opinions are based on several years of playing this game, designing courses and being part of the TGCT community. My opinions are based on fact and experience, not speculation and conspiracy. What's more, I have said "I" and "me," not "we" and "us." I am only one person with one opinion. I cannot speak for an entire tour, only myself, when giving an opinion.
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Post by welikeitroughnc on Sept 12, 2019 7:58:20 GMT -5
Continued onto round 3 struggled to get started but quickly caught fire it was a tough round with pins and the vf conditions. Managed more ludicrous putts including a 44 ft eagle, hard course to get at with some of the slopes and pins but managed another decent round.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Sept 12, 2019 8:04:48 GMT -5
Here’s my response. This is a game you play for fun on a site you don’t pay for with folks you don’t know who have lives you know nothing about.
If you aren’t having fun or hate dealing with the things you deem to be BS then just stop. Do you honestly think someone is going to reply “oh you’re right we totally were hoodwinked! What idiots we all are to think this course was great and fun! We must be jerks! Quick award that man a gold star.”?
Folks have differing opinions. Fine. But if you’re in the vast minority of an opinion about something like this I have no idea what you’re hoping to accomplish other than gaining some strange sense of superiority based on being an outlying opinion or perhaps getting a few “yeah I agree you tell them!” Which again feeds ego.
The way in which the “argument” is being made is junk. Play or don’t. Have fun or don’t. Your choice. Trying to reason this all out is pointless. Play and have fun or don’t play and have fun doing something else.
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