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Post by ezzinomilonga on Aug 31, 2019 10:08:33 GMT -5
Hi again This is my last list. I promise it Anyway..this kind of list is quite different respect the previous one..This is not for the players, but is ideated having in mind mainly (well..only?) those designers who wants to create some RCR. The goals (and the reasons why it could be an useful thing) realizing this are mainly three, in my opinion : 1) Try to give some input to those designers that, after ended a project, don't know exactly what to do and are looking for some inspiration. 2) Try to avoid that two designers works on the same project being not aware of it. 3) Have som kind of memo about what courses we should need as a community. For this reason i'll also start a list adding the courses we already have in TGC2019, to have a list ready for an eventual new game. The list reports more than 300 courses, by now. Is not a list created about my personal tastes, but i decided to follow two criteria (and a desire) : 1) To report all the missing courses listed in the top100 golf courses of the world, according the site top100golfcourses.com 2) To report all the missing courses used at some point in the most important tournaments of the world (Ryder Cup, President's Cup, US Open, The Open, PGA Championship, PGA Tour, European Tour and so go on. I still miss all the PGA Championship venues, some President's Cup venue..and i wish to implement even courses from the Asian, Japan, Australasian and Sunshine Tour. I already reported also the courses used in the 2019 season of the Web.com Tour) 3) I wish to report also the first top 5/10 listed courses from every continent and country (considering every state of USA as a Country, as for the UK states). You'll see that some cell has a different color : Light Blue for the courses used in the remaining part of the 2019 and the 2020 season of the Euro Tour. Blue for the courses used in the 2020 season of PGA Tour. Green for the 2019 President's Cup venue. White for the 2020 Olympic Games venue. Are also reported in Red the courses ever used for the US Open, in Gold the courses for the Ryder Cup, In Green the courses used in the 2019 season of the Web Tour. Slowly i'll highlight even the PGA Champ venues...and all the others that could be useful to have listed. As usual, there are comment on the title cell, when required or useful, hoping to explain details. And in other cells, how you'll see. As my first list, again, this is just a tool, probably not so interesting. I'm absolutely aware of this. But if it should be useful for someone, i'll be happy. So said...well..If you're a designer and you're working on a course reported on this list (or even not reported, it don't matters, if there0s a RCR already in production ), please use this thread or just PM to warn me and i'll report your name in the proper cell. Thank you. Edit : Oh..i forgot to say that if some designer prefer it, can ask (here or with a message everywhere on the list) to modify the list even without me, being added as an editor. I'll need just to know the name of the google account. After all, the list is for you designers, is not mine. All I ask is to be careful and to don't ruin something that could be useful for someone. That's all docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q-PtvGuDgD_USXlI-7rQw4yi7_rRSDizNgJHpNqer5w/edit?usp=sharingIf there are problems in the visualization of something, please let me know it and i'll try to fix it. If you find some course missing in the list, if you have suggestions, critics or other thoughts, please do the same. (Ah...I still need to complete the section about the Architects and the standings for American and Oceanian courses. I'll do it ASAP).
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Post by cathalos1991 on Aug 31, 2019 19:52:05 GMT -5
Hi again This is my last list. I promise it Anyway..this kind of list is quite different respect the previous one..This is not for the players, but is ideated having in mind mainly (well..only?) those designers who wants to create some RCR. The goals (and the reasons why it could be an useful thing) realizing this are mainly three, in my opinion : 1) Try to give some input to those designers that, after ended a project, don't know exactly what to do and are looking for some inspiration. 2) Try to avoid that two designers works on the same project being not aware of it. 3) Have som kind of memo about what courses we should need as a community. For this reason i'll also start a list adding the courses we already have in TGC2019, to have a list ready for an eventual new game. The list reports more than 300 courses, by now. Is not a list created about my personal tastes, but i decided to follow two criteria (and a desire) : 1) To report all the missing courses listed in the top100 golf courses of the world, according the site top100golfcourses.com 2) To report all the missing courses used at some point in the most important tournaments of the world (Ryder Cup, President's Cup, US Open, The Open, PGA Championship, PGA Tour, European Tour and so go on. I still miss all the PGA Championship venues, some President's Cup venue..and i wish to implement even courses from the Asian, Japan, Australasian and Sunshine Tour. I already reported also the courses used in the 2019 season of the Web.com Tour) 3) I wish to report also the first top 5/10 listed courses from every continent and country (considering every state of USA as a Country, as for the UK states). You'll see that some cell has a different color : Light Blue for the courses used in the remaining part of the 2019 and the 2020 season of the Euro Tour. Blue for the courses used in the 2020 season of PGA Tour. Green for the 2019 President's Cup venue. White for the 2020 Olympic Games venue. Are also reported in Red the courses ever used for the US Open, in Gold the courses for the Ryder Cup, In Green the courses used in the 2019 season of the Web Tour. Slowly i'll highlight even the PGA Champ venues...and all the others that could be useful to have listed. As usual, there are comment on the title cell, when required or useful, hoping to explain details. And in other cells, how you'll see. As my first list, again, this is just a tool, probably not so interesting. I'm absolutely aware of this. But if it should be useful for someone, i'll be happy. So said...well..If you're a designer and you're working on a course reported on this list (or even not reported, it don't matters, if there0s a RCR already in production ), please use this thread or just PM to warn me and i'll report your name in the proper cell. Thank you. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q-PtvGuDgD_USXlI-7rQw4yi7_rRSDizNgJHpNqer5w/edit?usp=sharingIf there are problems in the visualization of something, please let me know it and i'll try to fix it. If you find some course missing in the list, if you have suggestions, critics or other thoughts, please do the same. (Ah...I still need to complete the section about the Architects and the standings for American and Oceanian courses. I'll do it ASAP). I've got Adare Manor, Ireland in my unpublished courses, still a bit of work to do but it's on the way. Sure the K Club is in the game but not accurate
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Post by cathalos1991 on Sept 1, 2019 1:28:35 GMT -5
Also my Royal Country Down course is only a beta from TGC2. It's not completed yet
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 4:10:50 GMT -5
Also my Royal Country Down course is only a beta from TGC2. It's not completed yet I know K club is not accurate. Almost every course from Albert Marriott/ ColinMafia is not accurate. But even his accurate course (as Harbour Town) are in this list, even if I really like his works on this course, cause he creates too easy sloped greens and this things seems to be too much for a lot of players..and I think is correct to report it in this list, so if someone want to create a lidar version, at least knows that we still have not a Harbour Town totally accurate. About your Royal County Down, I well know is a beta, but people plays it in every case, cause is still the best Royal County Down we have I tried to specify this thing in this comment, if they read it, they know it (no counting the fact that you specified that is a beta in the title, so.. I'll add your name to the Adam Manor in the "Taken by" cell when I'll be again at my PC. I wish also to take this chance to try to explain a bit why your courses are in this list and why are not listed as RCRs. Probably it was better doing this from the start, I knew, when I started to work on this list, that it would be difficult..and actually it is. A lot. And your courses are probably the courses more difficult to decide about. Give me just some minute and I'll try to explain. And if you have some critic, or if you are unhappy about something, tell it to me with no problems..the last thing I could ever wish is to have bad times with someone I respect and I like just cause a stupid list. Give me some minute, I have a pair of stupid things to do.
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Post by cathalos1991 on Sept 1, 2019 4:44:58 GMT -5
Also my Royal Country Down course is only a beta from TGC2. It's not completed yet I know K club is not accurate. Almost every course from Albert Marriott/ ColinMafia is not accurate. But even his accurate course (as Harbour Town) are in this list, even if I really like his works on this course, cause he creates too easy sloped greens and this things seems to be too much for a lot of players..and I think is correct to report it in this list, so if someone want to create a lidar version, at least knows that we still have not a Harbour Town totally accurate. About your Royal County Down, I well know is a beta, but people plays it in every case, cause is still the best Royal County Down we have I tried to specify this thing in this comment, if they read it, they know it (no counting the fact that you specified that is a beta in the title, so.. I'll add your name to the Adam Manor in the "Taken by" cell when I'll be again at my PC. I wish also to take this chance to try to explain a bit why your courses are in this list and why are not listed as RCRs. Probably it was better doing this from the start, I knew, when I started to work on this list, that it would be difficult..and actually it is. A lot. And your courses are probably the courses more difficult to decide about. Give me just some minute and I'll try to explain. And if you have some critic, or if you are unhappy about something, tell it to me with no problems..the last thing I could ever wish is to have bad times with someone I respect and I like just cause a stupid list. Give me some minute, I have a pair of stupid things to do. Apologies if I seemed annoyed or anything, I just wanted to highlight it with you in case you weren't aware I'm happy to have my courses listed here for sure
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 5:05:30 GMT -5
Well. A little premise, that I hope could helps to understand a little part of the issues I found working on this thing. When, a pair of months ago, I started checking RCRs with the satellite maps, my idea was to be very "easy" and to consider as a RCR, fundamentally every course with the correct routing, the shape of fairways (more or less) and number and position of bunkers and water hazards. Just this it was enough for me. Then..after more or less 20 checked courses, I played two versions of the TPC Sawgrass. First the one made by Boomer, then the one made by...mmmm..Brandon Pugh, if I'm not wrong. Well..no counting the fact that one it shows the course before the renovation works ended in 2017 and one after those works..the problem was that while the work of Boomer it was a good one, but definitely not so accurate..the work of Brandon was simply spot on. In everything. And I realized that it would be simply unfair to consider these works in the same way. And that the only way to give some kind of little recognition to the work of those guys who have the patience to shape perfectly greens and bunkers (I suppose the hardest and annoying part of the work), was to consider as REAL RCRs only those courses in which really everything is as it should be. Obviously this thing is almost impossible to have always, nothing in life is just white or black. And here there are no exceptions to this rule. I try to select as RCR those courses with less gray is possible.
And is fu&$#Ng hard, cause there are courses of every kind. About your courses, for example, is a drama for me every time. You already know that I love your work. Just to say a stupid thing, I have a personal list, for those courses I want to use on my offline society mocking the PGA tour with real courses I like the most. And you'll be probably the designer with much more courses in my society..cause I really love the atmosphere of every course you create. But is also true that the shape of greens is never exactly the same that I can see on the satellite map. At the same time, I feel bad cause it seems that your courses are the same than, for example, those made by Nobuko Tanaka, a guy who creates a lot of real courses but there are never well shaped and are light years distant from the quality of your work. So..the only thing I can do, is to specify in the comment's section how much high is the quality of your work and how minimal is the difference respect a RCR.
I was thinking about the chance to create a third category, to highlight the difference between the graphic level of a course, but what stopped me starting this thing, is that I'm not a designer, I simply have not the knowledge to evaluate properly this kind of skills..and I fear to create only more confusion and to implement a personal level of evaluation..that is something I wish to avoid in every way.
To complete the explanation, you can see that in this list are indicated also courses considered RCRs. For example Muirfield Village (a Lidar one!) and the Blue Monster at Doral made by PGAmichael. And this cause Muirfield it can be a Lidar, but is strange to play. I doubt is really accurate (and, even here, I don't tall about the graphic level that honestly don't seems so good...), while the Blue Monster it seems perfect, but the shape of every bunker it looks not enough accurate..and I'm also not sure that the shape of the greens is near to reality. So..if someone wants to create a Lidar version, he can knows that the versions we have are even good ones, but there's still room to make it perfect. And actually..this is the sense of the list..at least in my intentions. (obviously, a lot of courses are not included, partially cause they're not used on some important Tournament, partially cause I still need to check a lot of courses, partially cause I can still miss to report some course from the first list, I need a bit more time to do these things..but I wanted to release a first version of this list before the start of the new season).
So said..if you have suggestions to improve the while thing, I would be really happy to do everything I can to have the better work is possible. Really.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 5:09:08 GMT -5
I know K club is not accurate. Almost every course from Albert Marriott/ ColinMafia is not accurate. But even his accurate course (as Harbour Town) are in this list, even if I really like his works on this course, cause he creates too easy sloped greens and this things seems to be too much for a lot of players..and I think is correct to report it in this list, so if someone want to create a lidar version, at least knows that we still have not a Harbour Town totally accurate. About your Royal County Down, I well know is a beta, but people plays it in every case, cause is still the best Royal County Down we have I tried to specify this thing in this comment, if they read it, they know it (no counting the fact that you specified that is a beta in the title, so.. I'll add your name to the Adam Manor in the "Taken by" cell when I'll be again at my PC. I wish also to take this chance to try to explain a bit why your courses are in this list and why are not listed as RCRs. Probably it was better doing this from the start, I knew, when I started to work on this list, that it would be difficult..and actually it is. A lot. And your courses are probably the courses more difficult to decide about. Give me just some minute and I'll try to explain. And if you have some critic, or if you are unhappy about something, tell it to me with no problems..the last thing I could ever wish is to have bad times with someone I respect and I like just cause a stupid list. Give me some minute, I have a pair of stupid things to do. Apologies if I seemed annoyed or anything, I just wanted to highlight it with you in case you weren't aware I'm happy to have my courses listed here for sure Honestly, I would understand if you could be unhappy. I'm perfectly aware of the amount of work you put on your courses. And to see them "compared" (even is this was absolutely not my intention, but apparently this is what happens here, if you don't read the comments) to the work of guys that possibly spent the half of the time you spent..can be easily annoying. I know it and I apologize for this..but I simply can't find a real solution to this..and is for this that I'm fully open to suggestion and/or improvements.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 9:32:28 GMT -5
cathalos1991 do you know, mate? The most i think about all this thing (and trust me if i say that i think about this by the start..this has been probably my real pebble in the shoe from the first day), the most I think I'm wrong, here. Cause is senseless to penalize your work just cause some green (or some other detail) is shaped in a slight different way, while possibly, in the same time, I evaluate as RCR courses that yes, are precise in all these things but honestly looks the half of how much good looks one of your courses. No counting the fact that these differences I see, are NEVER big enough to affect the experience while you play. What I'm doing is just stupid. And also a bit pedantic..in an useless way, I mean (you know it, the border between the needed accuracy and the pedantry is a really tight one..and I crossed it, here). I need to slightly change my mind about this thing. And Evaluating your courses as RCRs, cause they deserves it. And I'll simply add in the notes these slight differences about some detail. I think is the most correct thing to do. Until now, i had this problem actually only with your courses and with the Austin CC, usually picked for the PGA. Another fantastic work that has the only flaw to have some green and bunker..and some detail here and there not perfectly shaped. It would be simply stupid to penalize two talented designers just for some detail. Stupid and unfair.
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Post by cathalos1991 on Sept 1, 2019 10:17:51 GMT -5
See it all comes down to how old or new the information you are working with and then trying to translate those measurements across to the game directly.
With the likes of Druids Glen, I actually got to work with them over a 10 month period on getting a more accurate course and you wouldn't believe how much a course can really change The General Manager of the course invited me up a few times to play it, gather as much info as I could and got to meet to head greenkeeper up there. With all my other projects, it's a case of getting all the data from as many sources as possible and making it work.
RCR can never be 100% accurate, it's simply impossible, because it's just you trying to pull together a lot of data and putting all that information into the game and have to keep tweaking it to a point where it looks like the course your playing. But just because an RCR can never be 100%, doesn't mean you shouldn't at least strive to achieve something very close to that.
With LiDAR, it has done all that work for you, at least all the hard work. From there it's pretty difficult to mess it up tbh.
It's always fair to be critical of things that you can see aren't done right or could be better, but at the same time it's also important to consider does that change make a significant difference to the playability of the course?
For example my version of Crans-sur-Sierre which is being played on the European Tour this week. I made the course roughly 18 months ago, it's now unbelievably outdated because of all the changes put in place for the last two tournaments, so changes there are necessary to keep it up to date with the real course
Like I could go and make those adjustments, but will it make a difference?? Probably not??
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Post by hoosierhoops24 on Sept 1, 2019 10:38:38 GMT -5
catholos1991 makes a great point about course changes. I just released a version of Colonial Country Club last week. The lidar data I used was from 2009 because that was the most recent data available. Luckily the course has changed very little since then, which helped me come out with a pretty accurate rendition. However, after the Charles Schwab finished this year, the course started a renovation, making the course I just released out of date for next year. I have no idea at this time how extensive the renovation work is, but I'm probably not going redo the course any time soon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 11:03:24 GMT -5
The main thing you have to know about lidar, is that it is data collected on the day and time it was scanned with laser. So it is like a picture - a capture of a single moment. Also, lidar data comes in different degrees of accuracy. So the quality of the data will vary from place to place and the time it was done. Lidar from 2009 in Norway for example are in 1m, and lidar from 2017 is 0,25m. This is a big difference.
Also, the picture quality in OSM, google earth etc. also vary - making it harder/easier to be accurate. In no way can any course be 100% accurate - this is also due to the limitations of the designer. The most important part as I see it - is to make the basics - all the sizes (fairways should have the correct size etc), elevation (good lidar data are the best here) as accurate as can be done. I would also like to see the planting done in a manner that fits the course - major tree placements (not random trees in a forest) that plays a key role on the course etc.
I thought I would create a user here to address this topic.
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Post by hoosierhoops24 on Sept 1, 2019 11:05:04 GMT -5
ezzino, thank you for putting together this list. It's obviously taken a great deal of work to compile. I've been trying to figure out what I want to work on next and this really helps. I think any classic/epic courses that we don't already have in the game should be left for better designers than me, but I enjoy doing RCR's. I think my niche in the design world is to create lesser known courses that have hosted at least one major (US Open or PGA). I have several on my radar, but haven[t decided which one to take on yet. Your work is helping me narrow it down. Thanks again for doing this.
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Post by hoosierhoops24 on Sept 1, 2019 11:06:08 GMT -5
The main thing you have to know about lidar, is that it is data collected on the day and time it was scanned with laser. So it is like a picture - a capture of a single moment. Also, lidar data comes in different degrees of accuracy. So the quality of the data will vary from place to place and the time it was done. Lidar from 2009 in Norway for example are in 1m, and lidar from 2017 is 0,25m. This is a big difference. Also, the picture quality in OSM, google earth etc. also vary - making it harder/easier to be accurate. In no way can any course be 100% accurate - this is also due to the limitations of the designer. The most important part as I see it - is to make the basics - all the sizes (fairways should have the correct size etc), elevation (good lidar data are the best here) as accurate as can be done. I would also like to see the planting done in a manner that fits the course - major tree placements (not random trees in a forest) that plays a key role on the course etc. I thought I would create a user here to address this topic. All great points!
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 12:56:00 GMT -5
More or less I was already aware about all this points. About the possible inaccuracy of the lidar, I think a proof could be exactly the lidar version we have of the muirfield village. Everything seems to be fine but..i don't know how to explain it exactly. Something seems to be wrong. But o can't say exactly what. Anyway..about when and if to consider a course accurate enough to be a RCR or not, probably it was better if I tried to talk a bit much with designers BEFORE, to start tho list instead to wait one month to do it But I can also assure that sometime is really difficult to judge. Even using the best and accurate satellite map I can find. Cause every designer has his own idea of accuracy. And a standard of quality. Is for this that I said from the start that I'm open to any kind or critic or advice. If this thing is for all us and not simply mine, it can be only better, if more than one person share his knowledge and experience. And controls how things actually are. Obviously I'm trying to do my best, cause I want to offer the best thing is possible, but i knew..and I still know..that is not so easy to don't make mistakes. For this reason..everytime you should find something wrong, please tell me what is wrong or what it possible to do better, in your opinion... and I'll do everything I can to improve the whole thing. Oh..and thank you for all these feedbacks. Is exactly what I'm talking about
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 1, 2019 12:56:45 GMT -5
The main thing you have to know about lidar, is that it is data collected on the day and time it was scanned with laser. So it is like a picture - a capture of a single moment. Also, lidar data comes in different degrees of accuracy. So the quality of the data will vary from place to place and the time it was done. Lidar from 2009 in Norway for example are in 1m, and lidar from 2017 is 0,25m. This is a big difference. Also, the picture quality in OSM, google earth etc. also vary - making it harder/easier to be accurate. In no way can any course be 100% accurate - this is also due to the limitations of the designer. The most important part as I see it - is to make the basics - all the sizes (fairways should have the correct size etc), elevation (good lidar data are the best here) as accurate as can be done. I would also like to see the planting done in a manner that fits the course - major tree placements (not random trees in a forest) that plays a key role on the course etc. I thought I would create a user here to address this topic. Hi! Happy to see you here
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