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Post by CiB0RG on Aug 27, 2019 11:30:45 GMT -5
I'm more of a roller/wiper than a flicker... but everyone has their thing, right?
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Post by fadgewacker on Aug 28, 2019 6:08:00 GMT -5
Keep in mind also, this is primarily a PS4 issue as it is difficult to do consistently on the xbox/pc. It's not easy to do consistently on PS4... and I've seen streams where PC and XBOX guys are getting short lines consistently... which doesn't mean it's easy to do consistently on those platforms either. Just sayin' The biggest issue is that it can be 'manufactured' very easily, but that's all I have to say about that
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Post by GW_Hope on Aug 29, 2019 9:01:35 GMT -5
Now is the time to make your case with HB. This is the response I just got a few minutes ago from HB Craig. We need to have more than just a few of us to make a change. Not saying it would happen but doing nothing leads to nothing.
Quote from: GW_Hope on Today at 10:13:34 AM To be blunt. TGC2 was a much better and swing as far as skill needed. 2019 is just to easy to exploit. I still can’t believe HB won’t accept that there are some major flaws with it. I would be happy if we were told that there will be some adjustments. But all we get is it works as designed. If that is true then the design is flawed. Just to be clear, the swing input tracking between TGC2 and TGC2019 did not change. The only difference is how we display the line. 2019 shows exactly what your thumbstick did. TGC2 hid all of that and drew a line based on averages. This was a design decision to display actual input so that corrections could be made by the user, whereas in TGC2 all of that was hidden, making it harder to see what you did wrong.
We did remove a number of random calculations that made it impossible to be consistent, meaning that TGC2 had more of a luck element to it than skill compared to TGC 2019, and we changed a number of elements to the entire swing input to be able to create more shot outcomes. But how we track and return swing line input, did not change. Perhaps we should have kept the exact swing line input hidden. We felt it was more beneficial to the user to see exactly what happened.
It is working exactly as designed. Are there improvements that could be made? Of course there are, as with anything
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Flicking
Aug 29, 2019 9:12:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by flyingj75 on Aug 29, 2019 9:12:55 GMT -5
In other words: Our swing mechanic is exactly as we planned. You couldn't possibly find an exploit because yadayadayadayadayadayadyadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayadayada.... What you are experiencing is not what is really happening yadayadayadayada don't believe what you are seeing yadayadayada.
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Post by fadgewacker on Aug 29, 2019 9:21:40 GMT -5
Now is the time to make your case with HB. This is the response I just got a few minutes ago from HB Craig. We need to have more than just a few of us to make a change. Not saying it would happen but doing nothing leads to nothing. Quote from: GW_Hope on Today at 10:13:34 AM To be blunt. TGC2 was a much better and swing as far as skill needed. 2019 is just to easy to exploit. I still can’t believe HB won’t accept that there are some major flaws with it. I would be happy if we were told that there will be some adjustments. But all we get is it works as designed. If that is true then the design is flawed. Just to be clear, the swing input tracking between TGC2 and TGC2019 did not change. The only difference is how we display the line. 2019 shows exactly what your thumbstick did. TGC2 hid all of that and drew a line based on averages. This was a design decision to display actual input so that corrections could be made by the user, whereas in TGC2 all of that was hidden, making it harder to see what you did wrong. We did remove a number of random calculations that made it impossible to be consistent, meaning that TGC2 had more of a luck element to it than skill compared to TGC 2019, and we changed a number of elements to the entire swing input to be able to create more shot outcomes. But how we track and return swing line input, did not change. Perhaps we should have kept the exact swing line input hidden. We felt it was more beneficial to the user to see exactly what happened. It is working exactly as designed. Are there improvements that could be made? Of course there are, as with anything Unless we can get them to understand the issue (I've responded as my less offensive alias, Turbot-Tickler) then I doubt I'll be back. We'll see if I even get a response this time
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Post by ABU_Bear on Aug 29, 2019 10:54:28 GMT -5
Now is the time to make your case with HB. This is the response I just got a few minutes ago from HB Craig. We need to have more than just a few of us to make a change. Not saying it would happen but doing nothing leads to nothing. Quote from: GW_Hope on Today at 10:13:34 AM To be blunt. TGC2 was a much better and swing as far as skill needed. 2019 is just to easy to exploit. I still can’t believe HB won’t accept that there are some major flaws with it. I would be happy if we were told that there will be some adjustments. But all we get is it works as designed. If that is true then the design is flawed. Just to be clear, the swing input tracking between TGC2 and TGC2019 did not change. The only difference is how we display the line. 2019 shows exactly what your thumbstick did. TGC2 hid all of that and drew a line based on averages. This was a design decision to display actual input so that corrections could be made by the user, whereas in TGC2 all of that was hidden, making it harder to see what you did wrong. We did remove a number of random calculations that made it impossible to be consistent, meaning that TGC2 had more of a luck element to it than skill compared to TGC 2019, and we changed a number of elements to the entire swing input to be able to create more shot outcomes. But how we track and return swing line input, did not change. Perhaps we should have kept the exact swing line input hidden. We felt it was more beneficial to the user to see exactly what happened. It is working exactly as designed. Are there improvements that could be made? Of course there are, as with anything Unless we can get them to understand the issue (I've responded as my less offensive alias, Turbot-Tickler) then I doubt I'll be back. We'll see if I even get a response this time If you don't come back...can you at least post here once in a while?...we still wanna see Paige
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Flicking
Aug 29, 2019 11:22:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by mrohde4 on Aug 29, 2019 11:22:59 GMT -5
We can all agree esports gaming and esports broadcasting are booming industries.
As a franchise, TGC is poised to dominate any formal competitive golfing esports ventures in the immediate future. 2 years away? Five years? Golden tee events set the standard, but with an inferior game.
Sadly, if the flick/short-swing exploit is still in future TGC games, any chance of legitimate TGC esports super-competitive “made-for-television” events is slim to none. People will be playing two different games.
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Post by cephyn on Aug 29, 2019 11:26:40 GMT -5
HB has no interest in esports for their game. that would require acknowledging a community.
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Post by mcoale2004 on Aug 29, 2019 11:46:05 GMT -5
Screw the controller fix the damn mouse!!!!!
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Theopen
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 143
TGCT Name: Brian Ayers
Tour: Beer League
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Post by Theopen on Sept 5, 2019 22:25:41 GMT -5
The main problem, at least for HB I think, is that it's unlikely there's any way it can be identified with any level of consistency. Every controller is going to produce different data points when flicked, and those numbers won't produce a repeatable pattern for them to deem "illegal". The controller still returns data to the game after their finger leaves the stick ... no way for the game to tell if the user was in control of the stick the whole time or not.
Regardless, the point of having a pull-back, push-forward approach to the gameplay, is to mimic a real golf swing. That's two separate movements that you need to get just right in order to get that perfect shot (compounded in difficulty by needing to nail both the speed/tempo as well as the accuracy of each movement). This method is skipping the second part entirely (or at least mostly, if you want to argue semantics). In most cases, it's simply relying on the springs inside the joystick mechanism to snap the stick back to center.
It's no different than if someone were to use a straight-edge to ensure their mouse goes in a perfectly straight line every shot. I'm sure everyone would agree that would be violating the rules and is the exact reason the API looks for suspiciously consistent results. In either case, it is deliberately bypassing some of the actions that are meant to be completed by the user.
I just don't see how anyone can think either method would be within the intended rules of the game, let alone within the definition of "fair-play".
... at least from my two cents worth.
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Post by fadgewacker on Sept 6, 2019 4:06:09 GMT -5
The main problem, at least for HB I think, is that it's unlikely there's any way it can be identified with any level of consistency. Every controller is going to produce different data points when flicked, and those numbers won't produce a repeatable pattern for them to deem "illegal". The controller still returns data to the game after their finger leaves the stick ... no way for the game to tell if the user was in control of the stick the whole time or not. Regardless, the point of having a pull-back, push-forward approach to the gameplay, is to mimic a real golf swing. That's two separate movements that you need to get just right in order to get that perfect shot (compounded in difficulty by needing to nail both the speed/tempo as well as the accuracy of each movement). This method is skipping the second part entirely (or at least mostly, if you want to argue semantics). In most cases, it's simply relying on the springs inside the joystick mechanism to snap the stick back to center. It's no different than if someone were to use a straight-edge to ensure their mouse goes in a perfectly straight line every shot. I'm sure everyone would agree that would be violating the rules and is the exact reason the API looks for suspiciously consistent results. In either case, it is deliberately bypassing some of the actions that are meant to be completed by the user. I just don't see how anyone can think either method would be within the intended rules of the game, let alone within the definition of "fair-play". ... at least from my two cents worth. Bang on... sadly, this ultimately consistent result that comes from the flick IS able to be weeded out by the API, when the user is trying to swing as straight as possible, AND flicking, but by those with worse swings, be it intentionally or unintentionally, the short swing does nothing but improve their results. Many of "the best players in the world" (and many more that likely aren't the best ) are flicking but with a crooked swing, that doesn't set the API off. There is enough variance to avoid looking robotic, yet not enough variance stop them sticking it next to flags, and crucially, nowhere near enough variance to trouble them on fully lofted and delofted shots... If those shots flowed to the edge of the feedback circle, these fellas would be off the API chart the stokes would be so wide. The short swing is the biggest crutch going. That's the major problem as far as I see it.
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Post by ohheycat on Sept 6, 2019 9:11:54 GMT -5
As a prior flicker I can confirm that I was able to fully loft and deloft without stress. I just had to play what I called a standard deviation, which was a standard push and it was pretty much as reliable as using a hori. The only tricky part was figuring out exactly the point I would leave the blue and incur the additional accuracy 'penalty'. The benefit is 2 fold as well, so if you're doing this you can pull a wedge out of your bag and not miss it, opening up a slot to cover longer distances. I feel bad for the guys battling in the pga legit.. especially those not on ps4. The Fair play aspect is basically out the window as long as we can let the spring in our controller finish our swing and still pass the api. I'm glad I finally failed and had my eyes opened. I dont want to be a part of that.
Tgct does a great job, and all they can do. This is HBs mess to clean up, and unfortunately it affects about 100 players in a meaningful way across their entire player base, so, I wouldn't count on a change. That's too bad though.
These days you can find me on the bct, where all platforms and players are able to play on even ground. No disparity in tempos across platforms, and the effect of the flick swing is pretty well mitigated by the giant blue swing cone. We invite you to join us for season 6
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 6, 2019 19:49:52 GMT -5
After weeks to be concerned about this shameful thing of short flickers, as a final thought before to start the new season and then simply stop to be concerned about it (and just to try also to release a bit of the frustration I feel, looking this great tour ruined by a bunch of cheaters with no shame or even just a bit of pride), i have to say that..no matter how much I try, I really can't understand why to cheat in a golf videogame. With money not involved, above all. What kind of sad puppet you must be and how much boring and useless must be your life to need this kind of satisfaction? I'm probably really too stupid, to understand or to accept it. So, what I really wish to ask, just one time, to any guy who plays in this way is simply this : But really do you feel so good and is a so great feeling, to see your name between the top players "in the world", to collect trophies and titles, while almost all the other players knows exactly HOW you collected all this prizes.. and on EVERY tournament they are laughing about you (as they should always do..cause the respect is something that you must/can receive only if you give it first..and I can't imagine nothing much more disrespectful than to cheat constantly to be considered among the best in a community)? Really do you feel so good to be a coward? (cause YOU ARE a coward, absolutely. No doubts on this. After all, if you use this trick on your swing, is simply cause you KNOW that playing in the proper way, you would struggle. Every single round. Cause the truth is that you're just not good enough to obtain a straight line, playing legit, that is exactly almost the half of the entire challenge here. Simple and clear like water. But being a little child who don't know how to accept to fail..here we are) Well..good for you if you are so happy to be a clown. Enjoy it. We'll enjoy the sad show you'll offer too.
(sorry..but at least one time, I needed to tell this simple truth).
Do you know what..I understand that (and why) is impossible to stop this shame on tour..but honestly I wish to see implemented, at least for President's Cup, Ryder's Cup and, shortly, in all the tournaments played with the match play formula, the rule that players must to play on the same time and, if it is needed (i never played online with other guys, i don't know what you see and what you don't, about the other guy's swing) to share a video of the round..just to guarantee that at least who plays in this kind of tournaments, must play in a legit way. And to add some more pathos..that after all is why we play. I know this would be uneasy and probably also a bit too much, but please consider that we seriously risk (just to be optimistic and don't say that is simply already sure) to have another season with almost not a single legit winner for every major tournament we have. EVERY. And it would be really sad, if this shame should affects also the Ryder and the President's cup. There is a way to implement this kind of solution, just on this kind of tournaments?
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Post by itsmb8 on Sept 7, 2019 23:56:57 GMT -5
As a prior flicker I can confirm that I was able to fully loft and deloft without stress. I just had to play what I called a standard deviation, which was a standard push and it was pretty much as reliable as using a hori. The only tricky part was figuring out exactly the point I would leave the blue and incur the additional accuracy 'penalty'. The benefit is 2 fold as well, so if you're doing this you can pull a wedge out of your bag and not miss it, opening up a slot to cover longer distances. I feel bad for the guys battling in the pga legit.. especially those not on ps4. The Fair play aspect is basically out the window as long as we can let the spring in our controller finish our swing and still pass the api. I'm glad I finally failed and had my eyes opened. I dont want to be a part of that. Tgct does a great job, and all they can do. This is HBs mess to clean up, and unfortunately it affects about 100 players in a meaningful way across their entire player base, so, I wouldn't count on a change. That's too bad though. These days you can find me on the bct, where all platforms and players are able to play on even ground. No disparity in tempos across platforms, and the effect of the flick swing is pretty well mitigated by the giant blue swing cone. We invite you to join us for season 6 Thats why I never played basically the entire season. I legit dont even know how to flick so I was playing the game the normal way and my best efforts ended up with me just outside the PGA cutline. Plus I played on PS4 so it was a case of me getting disappointed knowing a lot of guys ahead of me were flicking but then not being able to say anything because I was on PS4 so nobody would have any sympathy anyways.
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Post by grinder12000 on Sept 8, 2019 6:30:46 GMT -5
If everybody hates flicking and think it's not fair and too easy . . . . why don't you flick. Maybe flickers are doing it right and non-flickers are doing it wrong. Just sayin. Is there a written rule somewhere on the proper way to use a control? I don't remember seeing one.
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