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Post by LKeet6 on Mar 26, 2019 8:59:01 GMT -5
Yep, and the other problem with that idea is the idea that Beginners Clubs Tour could promote in to CCZ. Most of those on the BCT are plenty good enough to play much higher than CCZ, they just choose not to (which is fair enough). There isn't an easy answer to this to keep everyone happy. I think the best idea I've seen is to split the Challenge Circuit in to a Pro half and a Masters half, with the top tier of each promoting straight to Web (which stays as it is). So you could kind of choose which route you want to take. But I've no idea how easy that would be to code and administer. Failing that, giving the top 5/10 Masters users a promo mark regardless of finishing position?
LOVE both those ideas.
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Post by pc17 on Mar 26, 2019 10:18:43 GMT -5
The CC-G to CC-B should be Pro clubs only. I am not necessarily against your idea, but do have minor nitpicks. A lot of players would be upset that they could not use Master Clubs because they would just rather play that way. How about we just let them use Masters if they want even though they're at a disadvantage (which is effectively what we have now)?Why should CC-A specifically be forced to use Master Clubs? Wouldn't that just cause the same "step-up" scenario we have now, only one level lower? Players missing the Thursday cut on Web.com are not barred from playing their final 2 rounds; they just wouldn't count for anything. I see your point Patrick, but this isn't about stopping people from playing with Masters, this is about a level playing field. When I was in the CC-A, I had 4 promotion strikes earned with Master clubs and started struggling with tempo issues and getting nowhere. So I went back to Pro clubs and eventually earned my 5th strike. While I was playing this Tour with Pro's, I was still playing random courses with Master's to keep in with them. Other people can do the same if they so wish. |
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 26, 2019 13:37:54 GMT -5
I see your point Patrick, but ... this is about a level playing field. I understand that. If we end up encountering this same problem in season 6, assuming there's a new game, I would support an idea like what XJ_Jagman had suggested where there would be two tracks in CC - CC-Pro and CC-Master that would restrict club selection to Pro only or Master only and would both promote to Web.com. I base that idea on the following premises: 1. Players want a level playing field more than they want to compete against all club types 2. There is no material skill difference between players who choose Master Clubs and those that choose Pro Clubs. In other words, the best Pro Club players in CC are as good as the best Master Club players, generally speaking. 3. Comparing scores attained with Master Clubs with scores attained with Pro Clubs is nearly impossible, as there is no defined metric that measures the difference in difficulty. All we have is a belief, based on anecdotal evidence that scores are generally higher (worse) for most players when switching from Pro to Master. Implied is that, the higher skill one has, the better Master Clubs perform for that player. By how much? No one knows. All of that seems to be quite a bit of work: getting players into the correct track, reorganizing the Challenge Circuit, updating the main site's rules and Player Profiles, adding API checks, updating back-end code to remove players that use the wrong Clubset. His would it change players' behavior? How many more players would use Master Clubs because they knew they would not have to compete with Pro Club users? This might be a moot conversation, or exceptionally poignant, depending upon how HB handles difficulty in the next game. |
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Post by pc17 on Mar 26, 2019 14:38:52 GMT -5
I see your point Patrick, but ... this is about a level playing field. I understand that. If we end up encountering this same problem in season 6, assuming there's a new game, I would support an idea like what XJ_Jagman had suggested where there would be two tracks in CC - CC-Pro and CC-Master that would restrict club selection to Pro only or Master only and would both promote to Web.com. I base that idea on the following premises: 1. Players want a level playing field more than they want to compete against all club types 2. There is no material skill difference between players who choose Master Clubs and those that choose Pro Clubs. In other words, the best Pro Club players in CC are as good as the best Master Club players, generally speaking. 3. Comparing scores attained with Master Clubs with scores attained with Pro Clubs is nearly impossible, as there is no defined metric that measures the difference in difficulty. All we have is a belief, based on anecdotal evidence that scores are generally higher (worse) for most players when switching from Pro to Master. Implied is that, the higher skill one has, the better Master Clubs perform for that player. By how much? No one knows. All of that seems to be quite a bit of work: getting players into the correct track, reorganizing the Challenge Circuit, updating the main site's rules and Player Profiles, adding API checks, updating back-end code to remove players that use the wrong Clubset. His would it change players' behavior? How many more players would use Master Clubs because they knew they would not have to compete with Pro Club users? This might be a moot conversation, or exceptionally poignant, depending upon how HB handles difficulty in the next game. What you have written above makes a lot sense. However the skill level between a top Pro club player and a Master club player, in my mide us unmeasurable, because a Master club player will encounter more tempo issues which can render some rounds unplayable. In last weeks Web.com tour, I had just 5 tempo issues in 4 rounds, and finished joint 3rd. Played my 1st & 2nd rounds in this weeks Web tour, had 9 tempo issues in R1 and 13 in R2. I'll almost certainly miss the cut this week. Some things in this game are just out of your control. |
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Post by CiB0RG on Mar 26, 2019 15:35:46 GMT -5
I see your point Patrick, but ... this is about a level playing field. 3. Comparing scores attained with Master Clubs with scores attained with Pro Clubs is nearly impossible, as there is no defined metric that measures the difference in difficulty. All we have is a belief, based on anecdotal evidence that scores are generally higher (worse) for most players when switching from Pro to Master. Implied is that, the higher skill one has, the better Master Clubs perform for that player. By how much? No one knows. This is a great point in this discussion. I just wanted to share something to this point: A number of the players I interact with in CC that play with Pro clubs have told me that they are definitely able to use Master clubs and still shoot respectable scores but they admit they might lose a few strokes in doing so and also not enjoy it as much. However those players also are not surprised if they play even better with Master clubs on a given week because they are clearly skilled enough to do so but maybe not as consistently as they would like. On the other hand, there is also a number of players I have spoken with that say the game is utterly unplayable for them if they use Master clubs. They will admit that if they switch they simply won't be able to compete, and that is totally understandable based on the known differences in consoles, controllers, pc capabilities, graphics capabilities, etc. There are even cases where some players play exclusively with Pro clubs because they don't have the physical ability to have a smooth and consistent stroke every time on a controller, possibly due to weaker or "shaky" hands. If you took every Pro club winner on the CC-Pro tours and made them re-try the tournament with Master clubs... I'd wager that a good number of them would still finish in the top 30 but I would also imagine some might actually finish outside the top 100. Would they be able to actually repeat the WIN with Master clubs? Who knows... some might be able to. |
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Post by ABU_Bear on Mar 27, 2019 14:55:06 GMT -5
I just hope HB decides one way or another to embrace true difficulty levels or remove the artificial difficulty differences around the green. TGC2 was better in this regard. TGC2 was better in EVERY regard |
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 27, 2019 15:10:31 GMT -5
TGC2 was better in EVERY regard No. It wasn't. TGC2's club sets are better balanced. You can make the case that TGC2 was more visually appealing. TGC2019 is superior in the following regards: - Better Societies with Major/Minor events - Introduced PGA TOUR mode which was completely absent from the previous game - Introduced peer-to-peer online play - Introduced true match play, alt-shot, and Skins modes - More complex swing mechanic that includes overswings - Improved Splines - Auto-Close Splines - Auto-Fill Splines - Trees can be rotated - Easier Designer Menus allowing user to select focus - More shed options (lol) Everyone can decide for themselves which changes are the most important to them. You might not design, or might never use the PGA TOUR mode. But these things are in the game and must be considered when making the claim that one is better "in every regard". If you prefer TGC2's gameplay, balance and visual presentation, or hate the updated swing mechanic in TGC2019, then that's fine. Those might be the most important for you. Is TGC2019 perfect? Hell no, but it is an improvement in several areas. |
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Post by Giraffe72 on Mar 27, 2019 21:06:32 GMT -5
I was just going to say "No, it wasn't," but yeah, what he said ^^^
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Post by Doyley on Mar 27, 2019 21:35:01 GMT -5
Stop using logic on the internet!
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 28, 2019 6:12:54 GMT -5
Stop using logic on the internet! Sorry, bad habit. |
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Post by JosiaDB on Mar 29, 2019 7:44:20 GMT -5
There isn't an easy answer to this to keep everyone happy. I think the best idea I've seen is to split the Challenge Circuit in to a Pro half and a Masters half, with the top tier of each promoting straight to Web (which stays as it is). So you could kind of choose which route you want to take. But I've no idea how easy that would be to code and administer. Failing that, giving the top 5/10 Masters users a promo mark regardless of finishing position?
These two ideas are the best I've seen, barring how hard it is to code them in.
As far as I think it was pc17 that said this-
I am in CC-Z and play masters all the time. I would not play my tour with pro's and random courses with masters, I would simply stop playing the tour if forced to play pro's.
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Post by ABU_Bear on Apr 3, 2019 16:30:07 GMT -5
TGC2 was better in EVERY regard No. It wasn't. TGC2's club sets are better balanced. You can make the case that TGC2 was more visually appealing. TGC2019 is superior in the following regards: - Better Societies with Major/Minor events - Introduced PGA TOUR mode which was completely absent from the previous game - Introduced peer-to-peer online play - Introduced true match play, alt-shot, and Skins modes - More complex swing mechanic that includes overswings - Improved Splines - Auto-Close Splines - Auto-Fill Splines - Trees can be rotated - Easier Designer Menus allowing user to select focus - More shed options (lol) Everyone can decide for themselves which changes are the most important to them. You might not design, or might never use the PGA TOUR mode. But these things are in the game and must be considered when making the claim that one is better "in every regard". If you prefer TGC2's gameplay, balance and visual presentation, or hate the updated swing mechanic in TGC2019, then that's fine. Those might be the most important for you. Is TGC2019 perfect? Hell no, but it is an improvement in several areas. As a non-designer and non-online player with others...it just find TGC2 to be a better game when it comes down to playability. Maybe I need to tap into those facets of 2019 for more enjoyment, but right now it's not even on the front burner for game play for me |
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Post by c6vette2010 on Apr 5, 2019 9:36:49 GMT -5
Reading between the lines of a few comments recently, I think we can expect a slightly different set up in Season 6 if the game remains as unbalanced as it is now. It's not TGCT's fault and I can see why they wouldn't want to change mid-season, but I think everybody pretty much agrees it's not an ideal scenario at the moment.
Agreed. We really don't have the ability to change mid-season even if we decided we want to. Right now, monthly donations have basically been running equal to the expenses which means we don't have money for extra developer help and so that means waiting on Tim to have the time [/end run-on sentence]. And we have a pretty big backlog of things piled up for Tim right now...taking on a big structure overhaul just isn't realistic, unfortunately. Hi Jeff, any idea what a ballpark budget number would be to code the “masters only” for CCPro or perhaps CCA only right now? |
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