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Post by Brighttail on Nov 2, 2018 14:20:54 GMT -5
Pro/Beginner club users in CC-A won't be able to earn positive promotion marks. They can get negative and then earn some to clear - but once they get back to 0 they can't get more. Master club users are the only ones that will earn positive promotion marks. That said, if players on beginner clubs are cleaning up (like they are in Q-School) they'll be promoted up to Web.com where they'll have to use Master Clubs or move on. My point is when all of this was being first out, the message from the Admin was "if you wanted to play in the pros, you had to use master's clubs" you weren't going to force anyone to shoot with clubs they didn't want. In fact i specifically asked you what if a person just wanted to shoot with Pro clubs and your reply was that they would stay in CC-a forever.
At some point this changed to, "do too well on CC-A with non-master clubs and you will either be promoted to web or you won't be allowed to play."
So I have to wonder what that formula is going to look like. 2 wins, 3 wins? 5 top 5s? 10 top 10s? What happens if in the middle of their 10 top 10s they end up being dead last a few times? Is there going to be a whole new "secret" formula for these people because you can't obviously let us know about it because people will abuse it. Right?
I find it unfortunate that people were told one thing going into Q-school and another thing during Q-school. I mean the whole reason for the CC tours was for those who didn't want to use Master clubs and those that did weren't good enough to be in the top 450.
Please understand, I don't mind 'rule changes' but I would have preferred this change happen a few months down the road, after the first massive tournament that allows people to move up more quickly than to be changed seemingly out of the blue. Once again I fully understand the WHY for the change. What I'm finding unfortunate is that it was kinda sprung on people without an official announcement after many had already chosen what clubs they were going to play with during Q-school. I guess many here didn't realize how competitive people playing pro/beginner clubs could be?
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Post by ErixonStone on Nov 2, 2018 14:36:17 GMT -5
I think the appropriate question is: If player A shoots X with Pro Clubs, what would he shoot with Master Clubs?
Someone shooting -70 (through 7 rounds) would probably be pretty good with Masters too.
And vice versa: Brad Garcia is -83 with Masters. What would he shoot with Pro Clubs?
I think the club sets are more balanced than we're giving them credit for - except for within 80 yards.
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Post by staypuft39 on Nov 2, 2018 14:54:29 GMT -5
Pro/Beginner club users in CC-A won't be able to earn positive promotion marks. They can get negative and then earn some to clear - but once they get back to 0 they can't get more. Master club users are the only ones that will earn positive promotion marks. That said, if players on beginner clubs are cleaning up (like they are in Q-School) they'll be promoted up to Web.com where they'll have to use Master Clubs or move on. My point is when all of this was being first out, the message from the Admin was "if you wanted to play in the pros, you had to use master's clubs" you weren't going to force anyone to shoot with clubs they didn't want. In fact i specifically asked you what if a person just wanted to shoot with Pro clubs and your reply was that they would stay in CC-a forever.
At some point this changed to, "do too well on CC-A with non-master clubs and you will either be promoted to web or you won't be allowed to play."
So I have to wonder what that formula is going to look like. 2 wins, 3 wins? 5 top 5s? 10 top 10s? What happens if in the middle of their 10 top 10s they end up being dead last a few times? Is there going to be a whole new "secret" formula for these people because you can't obviously let us know about it because people will abuse it. Right?
I find it unfortunate that people were told one thing going into Q-school and another thing during Q-school. I mean the whole reason for the CC tours was for those who didn't want to use Master clubs and those that did weren't good enough to be in the top 450.
Please understand, I don't mind 'rule changes' but I would have preferred this change happen a few months down the road, after the first massive tournament that allows people to move up more quickly than to be changed seemingly out of the blue. Once again I fully understand the WHY for the change. What I'm finding unfortunate is that it was kinda sprung on people without an official announcement after many had already chosen what clubs they were going to play with during Q-school. I guess many here didn't realize how competitive people playing pro/beginner clubs could be?
Easy fix? Create a no-promotion CC tour where players that do not want to go pro can play amongst themselves with pro or beginner clubs. They can keep using the clubs they want, but they can't keep beating up on those trying to promote. |
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Post by frank70 on Nov 2, 2018 14:58:28 GMT -5
I think the appropriate question is: If player A shoots X with Pro Clubs, what would he shoot with Master Clubs? Someone shooting -70 (through 7 rounds) would probably be pretty good with Masters too. And vice versa: Brad Garcia is -83 with Masters. What would he shoot with Pro Clubs? I think the club sets are more balanced than we're giving them credit for - except for within 80 yards. If you are not that good of a player, the baby sticks will help you a lot - cause you can't handle the master clubs. If you are a top 100 player you have no use for baby sticks - cause you can handle the masters club. So: a bad or average player will score way better with pro or beginner clubs, cause they are easier. A great player scores well no matter what stick you put into his hand. |
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 2, 2018 15:43:21 GMT -5
Easy fix? Create a no-promotion CC tour where players that do not want to go pro can play amongst themselves with pro or beginner clubs. They can keep using the clubs they want, but they can't keep beating up on those trying to promote. ^^ THIS ^^
I think this will be the best option for those who want to play on a tour using pro/beginner clubs. I had personally thought that was what CC-A was all about, those that wanted to play non-masters stayed where they were as long as they wanted, those that wanted to be promoted wouldn't be effected because by playing master clubs, they would receive a promotion mark as long as they finished in the top (X) of master club users.
We are literally talking a single grouping of CC-A. If a person wins on CC-B they are promoted. If they win on CC-a with non-master clubs they stay where they are. So what if they win 20 times, what is the purpose of promoting these people, just so other people who are ONLY playing non-master clubs get their chance at a win? That goes against the whole 'competition' and 'get better' notion. As for the people that are playing master clubs, are they going to get upset that they won't win a trophy in CC-A? That shouldn't be their goal it should be to move on to the Web Tour.
If you are going to penalize people for being too good using the clubs of their choice, should we then penalize Brad Garcia and others who win too much on the PGA? Should we tell them they have to move on to another tour with about 5 others because they are too good with master clubs?
This whole thing makes zero sense to me. If the admin are going to say "win too much with non-master clubs and we will force promote you" then what is the purpose of even allowing different clubs?
I agree, the best option would be to simply have an alternative leaderboard like we have right now with Q-school for the CC-A division. If you are playing with Master clubs, you are on page one. If you are playing with anything else you are page 2. People were told they would NOT be forced to play with master clubs if they didn't want to. The caveat was that they'd never make it to the Pros. Now it is, play with what you want until you win too many and we'll force you to play with master clubs. Kinda goes against everything we were told when the tours were being setup.
Point is you shouldn't punish people for being good. If people are upset that Brad is too good, we tell them to practice. Why should we tell someone in CC-A any different? I just feel that this goes against a lot of what was told to people prior to Q-school.
Want another option while we are at it? Let's not give out any trophies to anyone not using master clubs, then people won't have any reason to play with them ever. My fear is that this decision, out of the blue, without proper posting or notification is going to sour many of the players who signed up never having any intent ever to use master clubs. We shouldn't do that to them. We offered them a place to play with no restrictions on their clubs with the aforementioned caveat. They accepted, they played and now the rules are being changed. Shame.
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Nov 2, 2018 16:10:43 GMT -5
Why don't we just wait and see how the season goes?
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Post by paulus on Nov 2, 2018 16:10:54 GMT -5
You're not penalizing playing for being too good at the clubs of their choice - you're stopping players who really should step up a difficulty level from bullying those who don't have that level of skill.
Really I can only see this being tackled on a case by case basis. And not sure it's going to be such a huge issue - will there be many who can stand with the embarrassment of being called out by @bigm every week?...
Suck it and see for a bit.
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Nov 2, 2018 16:17:19 GMT -5
Forgive me, I am relatively new, but what happened in season 4? There was club restriction for the world tour, right? Was there anyone dominating the PGA without the tour clubs? So fast forward to season 5, the only real difference here is that there are now 3 tiers that have club restrictions instead of just 1.
Sorry, but I don't think we're going to have a problem. As my previous post stated, why don't we just wait and see what happens?
Doyley never definitively said there would be any forced promotions, it was only speculation.. at least that's how I took it.
See ya'll on CC-G....
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Post by Brighttail on Nov 2, 2018 16:52:52 GMT -5
You're not penalizing playing for being too good at the clubs of their choice - you're stopping players who really should step up a difficulty level from bullying those who don't have that level of skill. Really I can only see this being tackled on a case by case basis. And not sure it's going to be such a huge issue - will there be many who can stand with the embarrassment of being called out by @bigm every week?... Suck it and see for a bit. So how is this different from Brad or Ian Sweeney from 'bullying" those on the PGA who don't have their level of skill? Someone might be good enough to be on CC-a or PGA but not the skill to compete with those folks that may 'bully' by winning all the time. It just seems that we are willing to penalize those who are really good with non-master clubs but not those who are playing with master clubs. Just seems elitist. We already told these folks that if they want to be in the Pros they must play with Master clubs and if they don't they won't be able to play in things like the Masters, US Open or WGR events. Now we are telling them that if they are too good with the clubs that they are comfortable with, they must move up or they can't play. This exact scenario was brought up, asked and answered by the admin who told people could play with non-master clubs to their heart's content on CC-A.
Personally I'd be more fine with this decision had this been the rule when Q-school was announced but it wasn't. It seems that it was made when folks realized exactly how good some people were with the non-master clubs and only for the reason because for some odd reason, the admin thinks there might be 'some people' upset that a select few people might be winning all the tournaments in the CC-A division using non-master clubs. I'm not sure why that is even a concern? It should be like it always has been. If you are upset that people are always winning using non-master clubs, then practice more!
I mean should I expect that Chris, Fred and Brad will be moved into their own elite tour when they win 5 or 6 tournaments so I have a chance to win one using master clubs just cause I think they are being big, bad bullies for being too good with Master clubs? Oh wait, we already did that with the World Tour...
Sorry folks, just not a fan when rules change for one subset of the population for being too good but not others and for the record I'm playing Masters and should be on the Euro tour but I have friends that fully expected to play the full season using Pro or Beginner clubs because they have no interest in playing with Master clubs. Their enjoyment comes from playing with the non-master clubs and doing well with them and they were told they could do just that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 16:58:51 GMT -5
You're not penalizing playing for being too good at the clubs of their choice - you're stopping players who really should step up a difficulty level from bullying those who don't have that level of skill. Really I can only see this being tackled on a case by case basis. And not sure it's going to be such a huge issue - will there be many who can stand with the embarrassment of being called out by @bigm every week?... Suck it and see for a bit. So how is this different from Brad or Ian Sweeney from 'bullying" those on the PGA who don't have their level of skill?
There will always be a top tour no matter if there are two or twenty-two tiers. They cannot move up, but those in CC-A can. |
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Post by grantcrichter on Nov 2, 2018 17:11:29 GMT -5
Also I played a couple practice rounds at cc-a’s first course and it’s long as fukc and has me hitting woods and hybrids into most greens. Just pointing out that it’s not all warm n fuzzy playing with ladies clubs
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 17:13:13 GMT -5
You're not penalizing playing for being too good at the clubs of their choice - you're stopping players who really should step up a difficulty level from bullying those who don't have that level of skill. Really I can only see this being tackled on a case by case basis. And not sure it's going to be such a huge issue - will there be many who can stand with the embarrassment of being called out by @bigm every week?... Suck it and see for a bit. It seems that it was made when folks realized exactly how good some people were with the non-master clubs and only for the reason because for some odd reason, the admin thinks there might be 'some people' upset that a select few people might be winning all the tournaments in the CC-A division using non-master clubs. I'm not sure why that is even a concern? Go look again when you make the "good" claim. Exactly two (TWO!) players using non-Master clubs, and zero Pro club users, would be in the top 67 of the Pro leaderboard if allowed in. If one were to expand this logic outward, look at scores at -58 in general. OK? Now... -58 is the top 70 of the PGA Tour. Following still? Only five players on the CC leaderboard are at or above this score. So only five players using P/B clubs would make the cut. Yes, it doesn't work this way in reality, but I am simply refuting your claim of good.
In actuality they appear really good vs. a field of players that are the 4th tier from the top. It is fair of said players in the 4th, 5th, and 6th tiers to not like this.
As they move up with the club sets their advantage would lessen more and more and the skill would shine more than the playing on rails or with the bumpers in the gutter. I refuse to believe two players with -64 and -70 thru 7 rounds with beginner clubs are so bad that they have to use the basic set of clubs because they would be so much worse off with them. They enjoy beating up on lesser competition, IMO, and should be moved up if that level of play continues in the actual season.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 23:48:16 GMT -5
You're not penalizing playing for being too good at the clubs of their choice - you're stopping players who really should step up a difficulty level from bullying those who don't have that level of skill. Really I can only see this being tackled on a case by case basis. And not sure it's going to be such a huge issue - will there be many who can stand with the embarrassment of being called out by @bigm every week?... Suck it and see for a bit. Glad I’m known for calling out people working the angles, much better than being thought of as dishonest or not playing to the best of my (limited) ability. 😁 |
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Post by hudsobrya on Nov 3, 2018 16:26:09 GMT -5
It seems that it was made when folks realized exactly how good some people were with the non-master clubs and only for the reason because for some odd reason, the admin thinks there might be 'some people' upset that a select few people might be winning all the tournaments in the CC-A division using non-master clubs. I'm not sure why that is even a concern? Go look again when you make the "good" claim. Exactly two (TWO!) players using non-Master clubs, and zero Pro club users, would be in the top 67 of the Pro leaderboard if allowed in. If one were to expand this logic outward, look at scores at -58 in general. OK? Now... -58 is the top 70 of the PGA Tour. Following still? Only five players on the CC leaderboard are at or above this score. So only five players using P/B clubs would make the cut. Yes, it doesn't work this way in reality, but I am simply refuting your claim of good.
In actuality they appear really good vs. a field of players that are the 4th tier from the top. It is fair of said players in the 4th, 5th, and 6th tiers to not like this.
As they move up with the club sets their advantage would lessen more and more and the skill would shine more than the playing on rails or with the bumpers in the gutter. I refuse to believe two players with -64 and -70 thru 7 rounds with beginner clubs are so bad that they have to use the basic set of clubs because they would be so much worse off with them. They enjoy beating up on lesser competition, IMO, and should be moved up if that level of play continues in the actual season.
I agree with this 100% |
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Post by Giraffe72 on Nov 4, 2018 7:59:37 GMT -5
As someone who is about to start life back in the Challenge Circuit I don't have an issue with people using lesser club sets. If there are people that only enjoy playing that way then let them have at it, CC-A will become their championship. As long as that doesn't get in the way of Masters club users who want to progress then what's the problem? The proof will be in the pudding, let's see how it runs for a little while and go from there. I honestly don't see what enjoyment you can get from shooting -70odd with Beginners clubs but that's me.
In theory I think the current rules are just fine. These tours should be all inclusive but at the same time the top tours should have a level playing field. That's what they've done isn't it?
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