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Post by rod81simo on Mar 16, 2017 15:31:46 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for great short par 4s, all my courses usually feature one around 320yds or less, love the strategy that comes out in how a player approaches the hole. Some have their eyes lit up whilst the smart player tends to approach with caution and make sure they take out a big number by a costly error in judgement
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 16, 2017 23:32:45 GMT -5
A Crazy short par 4 is the 14th at Bandon trails. Elevated tee to a super wide fairway with an extreme left to right pitch. Any shots hugging the left side of the fairway will leave a level pitch down the throat of a narrow green. Any drive bailing out right will careen further right and leave a super dicey pitch over a bunker to a narrow green. Some people hate it some people love it. Either way it gets the blood flowing.
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Post by mnguy12000 on Mar 17, 2017 10:33:48 GMT -5
yes, too bad it is near impossible to really design a troubling par 4 in TGC currently. Only way is to have the shot have some big side hill lies. I am experimenting with a hole that slopes left to right and the green is 30 wide, 15 deep, that is angled right to left, and slopes that way too. It will probably play 320 or so, with the safe approach leaving you about 100 yards, with a pretty level shot, any further and the slop is going to get crazy. Probably with have water on the right side and bunkers on the left just past the optimal landing area. problem is the ball hits the side hill slope and just shoots to the right. I might have to make that fairway 30 to 35 yards wide at that point. lots of testing to be done.
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 17, 2017 21:50:34 GMT -5
Sounds like a fun hole. Would be cool to see some pictures of it. I am a fan of the short par 4 as well but I design them more as eagle oppertunities. It's almost impossible to design something that will produce a big number if not played correctly. yes, too bad it is near impossible to really design a troubling par 4 in TGC currently. Only way is to have the shot have some big side hill lies. I am experimenting with a hole that slopes left to right and the green is 30 wide, 15 deep, that is angled right to left, and slopes that way too. It will probably play 320 or so, with the safe approach leaving you about 100 yards, with a pretty level shot, any further and the slop is going to get crazy. Probably with have water on the right side and bunkers on the left just past the optimal landing area. problem is the ball hits the side hill slope and just shoots to the right. I might have to make that fairway 30 to 35 yards wide at that point. lots of testing to be done.
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 17, 2017 23:36:39 GMT -5
Here are some pics of a new course in Wisconsin called Sand Valley by David McLay Kidd. Looks incredible!
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Post by TreeWood on Mar 18, 2017 1:30:44 GMT -5
That second pic: The very place where even the most casual of golfers can explore, no... admire the nexus of colour, light, shape, and texture.
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Post by gregfordyce on Mar 18, 2017 16:53:56 GMT -5
Here are some pics of a new course in Wisconsin called Sand Valley by David McLay Kidd. Looks incredible! WOW looks beautiful...
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Post by gregfordyce on Mar 18, 2017 16:54:43 GMT -5
A Crazy short par 4 is the 14th at Bandon trails. Elevated tee to a super wide fairway with an extreme left to right pitch. Any shots hugging the left side of the fairway will leave a level pitch down the throat of a narrow green. Any drive bailing out right will careen further right and leave a super dicey pitch over a bunker to a narrow green. Some people hate it some people love it. Either way it gets the blood flowing. Very cool, love this.
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 18, 2017 19:20:34 GMT -5
Correction. This course is actually a Coore and Crenshaw design. There's a second course in the works by david Mclay Kidd . Here are some pics of a new course in Wisconsin called Sand Valley by David McLay Kidd. Looks incredible!
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 19, 2017 1:27:23 GMT -5
2nd hole at Cabot Cliffs by Coore and Crenshaw. Super wide v-shaped fairway and a green with a central hazard but angled to accept shots from both sides depending on the pin. Great use of existing natural features to create a unique, beautiful and strategically interesting hole.
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Post by pyates on Mar 19, 2017 11:02:48 GMT -5
2nd hole at Cabot Cliffs by Coore and Crenshaw. Super wide v-shaped fairway and a green with a central hazard but angled to accept shots from both sides depending on the pin. Great use of existing natural features to create a unique, beautiful and strategically interesting hole. Wow, that's a beauty! Love the strategic aspect of it as well, rewarding playing for position off the tee
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 20, 2017 8:43:48 GMT -5
“A first class hole must have the subtleties and strategic problems which are difficult to understand, and are therefore extremely likely to be condemned at first sight even by the best of players.” -Alister MacKenzie
This is a great quote. I think this quote sheds light on how firmness can be often misunderstood. Firmness brings subtlety into the design that might be uncomfortable to some players the first time round but once a player adapts the hole becomes far more interesting than if it were soft.
That being said not all courses play best firm but many of the great courses do.
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Post by misternic on Mar 22, 2017 8:22:59 GMT -5
I have always designed with the mindset that golf is about angles, a Jack Nicklaus repeated reference.
Specifically angle to clear a bunker, angle to stay in a fairway for doglegs (does it require you to turn the ball to get the ideal leave) Angle of approach, just hitting the fairway should not be enough angle of leave, where can you miss
Jack said "my number one goal in terms of creating individual shot values is to make the player use his mind ahead of his muscles...to think of his options before drawing a club."
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Post by rjwils30 on Mar 22, 2017 10:58:31 GMT -5
I fully.agree with this approach and I think it works best when the angles are not readily apparent, speaking to the quote above. Rather than contorting a narrow fairway to achieve angles I think it's more interesting to provide a wider fairway with a preferred angle of attack into a green or pin. This creates a more ambiguous but varied strategy that brings more choice into the game for the golfer. As discussed above this works best with firm conditions in IRL and video game golf. I have always designed with the mindset that golf is about angles, a Jack Nicklaus repeated reference. Specifically angle to clear a bunker, angle to stay in a fairway for doglegs (does it require you to turn the ball to get the ideal leave) Angle of approach, just hitting the fairway should not be enough angle of leave, where can you miss Jack said "my number one goal in terms of creating individual shot values is to make the player use his mind ahead of his muscles...to think of his options before drawing a club."
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Post by pyates on Mar 22, 2017 12:59:45 GMT -5
I fully.agree with this approach and I think it works best when the angles are not readily apparent, speaking to the quote above. Rather than contorting a narrow fairway to achieve angles I think it's more interesting to provide a wider fairway with a preferred angle of attack into a green or pin. This creates a more ambiguous but varied strategy that brings more choice into the game for the golfer. As discussed above this works best with firm conditions in IRL and video game golf. I have always designed with the mindset that golf is about angles, a Jack Nicklaus repeated reference. Specifically angle to clear a bunker, angle to stay in a fairway for doglegs (does it require you to turn the ball to get the ideal leave) Angle of approach, just hitting the fairway should not be enough angle of leave, where can you miss Jack said "my number one goal in terms of creating individual shot values is to make the player use his mind ahead of his muscles...to think of his options before drawing a club." Definitely, this is my belief/approach also, very well put both of you (and Big Jack Another interesting thing that comes into play is the shape of the individuals ball flight. In TGC it is identical for all golfers but IRL I've seen folk play with sometimes big natural draws and fades and both high and low ball flights. This can affect the best place to be on the fairway, providing a wide landing area definitely opens up varied strategies. What I mean by this is a hole that feeds in from the right (i.e. protected on the front left side) offers the straight hitter the best angle from the right side of the fairway, but for someone with a strong draw they might be able to make better use of the middle/left side and naturally feed into the hole from there. This is what I love so much about the sport, no 2 courses, or even 2 holes are the same, and no 2 golfers have the same array of shots available to them. You can be a very good golfer playing on the same course every day of the year and no 2 rounds would be the same. You will always have holes you could have played better, shots you missed or misjudged. Keeps you coming back
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