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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 11:10:22 GMT -5
I'm prepared for the backlash.
** Disclaimer ** This post is NOT directed to those who have worked hard to move up the classes. I commend you for your hard work in improving your game, especially my friend Jim McCarthy. Congrats man. See you in B Class someday, I hope.
Been doing a lot of research lately in regard to scores. So what is to follow is NOT talking out of my ass. This is based on data that I can prove if I have to.
When I first started this game, I was horrible. I have finally, after many months, become an average player. I think I can hold my own in C Class even if I'd have no chance of ever moving up from it.
When I got out of Q School, with a +83, I was put in D Class. I still feel that is too high for such a horrible score, but whatever. I was quickly put where I belong, in E Class, which is where I am hopefully going to be out of in the next couple of weeks. It's been a hard, long battle.
Okay, so what is this data I am talking about?
I'll give one example. There are many.
One player (no, I won't mention his name because I don't want to publicly shame anybody) is brand new. He just got out of Q School and was put in E Class. He has no history at all on the tour.
This person is currently close to winning the current event. He has shot much better than I did and I didn't do too badly at 33 under.
My question is this. How could he have done so badly out of Q School to be put in E Class and yet, in his very first event, come close to winning it with an amazing score?
I can come up with only 2 possible explanations, neither will be liked depending on which camp you're in (pro TGC or pro player)
1) The Q School evaluation process is seriously flawed. The courses are either way too hard compared to what people find in the actual tour, or the requirements for class placement are too strict. Because no way does a person who shoots what this person shot qualify for E Class. It is physically not possible.
2) The player sand bagged his way into the lower classes by scoring poorly so that he can get an advantage in winning.
Either way, I know I've just pissed somebody off.
Today, I am going to do Q School if the software will let me. I don't know if it will. If it does, I can almost guarantee you, based on my level of play today, that it will not put me in E Class. I'm guessing C at best and D at worst.
And if you look through the names folks, you will find LOTS of people who fall into this same scenario. Poor Q School showings and then shoot like champs in their first few tournaments.
Something is very wrong somewhere, because you can't have it both ways. If the player is truly playing honestly, then Q School is pointless the way it is. If Q School is in fact at least a partly accurate representation of where the player belongs, then there is some shadiness going on, on the part of the player.
I will report my Q School score when i finish it, again, if it lets me play it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 11:31:33 GMT -5
People go in not used to tougher courses. They get frustrated and just speed through somewhere around halfway through 108 holes.
The biggest improvements most make are in the first month. I havent played the CC course, but looking at the scores, it playd much easier than any of the 6 q school courses.
Harder setups take time to get used to. Easier ones take less planning/thought to get birdies.
Having said all of that, you still could be right on one of your points.
All you can control is improving your own game. It will only eat you up and frustrate you to let this bother you this much.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 15:07:24 GMT -5
Okay, just finished Q School. Shot 8 over, just missing C class by 3 strokes but easily making D class.
The person I was referring to in the OP is clearly a superior player to me. So what's he doing in E class?
Honestly, I don't know what to make of the results. I have a few theories and observations.
1) Maybe people just don't care enough to bust their hump at Q School and just go through the motions, figuring they'll play their real golf on the tour and eventually get to where they belong anyway.
2) Maybe the courses are so hard, as the person above me said, that they just get frustrated and blow through the rest, thus not giving a true representation of their level. So while not deliberately sandbagging, it does make Q School have less meaning if you don't care about it.
3) Maybe some people just plain cheat. They figure they're good enough to get to where they're going to belong anyway so they might as well get some easy wins before getting there.
4) Maybe Q School is flawed and this is as good as it gets. Still, it doesn't explain how I shot as well as I did, qualified for D class and yet this person, who is clearly a few notches better than me (look at his scores), only did well enough for E class.
5) Maybe there is no way to determine what the "problem" is, if there is in fact a problem at all. Still, it's frustrating when you see players shooting way over what they should be shooting in the class they've been put in. On the plus side, eventually these people WILL be out of my way. They can't shoot well and stay in the lower classes at the same time.
Ah, but then there's the guy who was in E class, got an exemption to D class and DIDN'T use it. That shouldn't be allowed. He should be forced to use it. As a result, he kept me out of making it into D Class after my last exemption. This person, by the way, is going to be on a sponsor's exemption into B class (yes, B CLASS) next week. This after all of 4 tournaments and being in E class no more than a couple of weeks ago. Sorry, but this just smells fishy to me.
The problem I have personally is that the powers that be here don't even want to acknowledge that cheating exists. I've been flat out told that nobody cheats. Amazing. Everybody here is honest. Yet, the data I've gathered tells me a very different story. Either that or chuck Q school. It's meaningless.
If I have offended anybody, I'm sorry. But I needed to get this out of my system one last time and be done with it. I'm probably going to be stuck bouncing between E and D class into the next millennium if the pattern I've seen continues. And if anybody wants the data, it's easily compiled, if not time consuming. Too many people are put in the lower classes and then shooting the doors off of these courses right out of the gate. They're all qualifying worse than me and yet blowing me out of the water on their first event.
Sometimes if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck.
Unfortunately, I have no way to prove this definitively.
So on Monday, I'm going to tee off, play my best golf, and hope I don't run into another E class sponsor exempt "pro" who blows the doors off the place with another 40 under par or better round.
But I'm not going to bet the store on it.
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Post by Tim on Feb 6, 2016 16:27:32 GMT -5
No offense Wags, but we are not changing our entire process that we have worked over 18 months to tweak and perfect based on your "findings".. Nor do I necessary agree with whole sandbagger approach.
Appreciate the effort here, and NO you didn't piss me or anyone else off, but here's some friendly advice.. stop worrying so much about where you are anyone is place and just go have fun!
Thanks! Tim
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 16:41:35 GMT -5
No offense Wags, but we are not changing our entire process that we have worked over 18 months to tweak and perfect based on your "findings".. Nor do I necessary agree with whole sandbagger approach. Appreciate the effort here, and NO you didn't piss me or anyone else off, but here's some friendly advice.. stop worrying so much about where you are anyone is place and just go have fun! Thanks! Tim Well, like I said, Monday, I'm going to tee off, put all this behind me and do the best I can and whatever happens happens. Because in the grand scheme of things, it's all out of my hands except for my own play.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 16:51:57 GMT -5
The courses in Q school are designed to be harder than some of the lower level CC players can handle. This week was a fairly easy course to score low, so what that guy did not unreasonable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 16:58:59 GMT -5
The courses in Q school are designed to be harder than some of the lower level CC players can handle. This week was a fairly easy course to score low, so what that guy did not unreasonable. So then it's possible to do better on the harder courses (as I did in Q School) but not as well on the easier courses as others who can't handle the harder courses as well? Cause that's the only thing that makes sense to explain our scores this week. Because with all things being equal, I should have scored better than this person as I was playing the same easy course as he did. Yet, I didn't even come close to his score. This is what I can't explain. If you can, I'm all ears.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 17:05:43 GMT -5
The courses in Q school are designed to be harder than some of the lower level CC players can handle. This week was a fairly easy course to score low, so what that guy did not unreasonable. So then it's possible to do better on the harder courses (as I did in Q School) but not as well on the easier courses as others who can't handle the harder courses as well? Cause that's the only thing that makes sense to explain our scores this week. Because with all things being equal, I should have scored better than this person as I was playing the same easy course as he did. Yet, I didn't even come close to his score. This is what I can't explain. If you can, I'm all ears. You're a human being. Sometimes you choke on an easier course because you think it's easier and you make mistakes. And those who can't handle the hard courses go into the easier courses and realize they can do well, so they focus a little more. Just because someone did poorly on one set of courses doesn't mean they'll automatically do well on another set. And vice versa. Other than Ian Sweeney, none of us are machines, and so results can vary.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 17:28:47 GMT -5
Hi Wagtunes. I'm assuming the player you're referring to is me and if that is indeed the case then you haven't pi**ed me off! I note from your opening post that the player you refer to is 'brand new'. Well I am a new TGC Tours member but I'm not new to the game, well not exactly. I actually purchased the game following its release on the Xbox One. Played it for many months and got to what I would call a pretty decent level before I sold my console in early 2015 as cash was needed to fund a house move. With the move completed and the finances in place, I bought a PS4 just over a month ago.
A good friend of mine has been a TGC Tours member since July 2015 hence I've actually been following the site since then, though he lost interest quite quickly and as I never had a console I couldn't play the game..........until now! I was really excited about joining TGC Tours as the only thing I didn't like about the game when I initially owned it was the lack of an online career mode, so I swiftly downloaded it from the Store and signed up.
Unfortunately, being the impatient person I am, as soon as I loaded the game I headed straight for Q-School with no prior practice whatsoever. Needless to say from my performance on the first few holes that there had clearly been a LOT of updates since I last played it but again, being Mr Impatient, I continued on and finished Q-School with a score of +30.
I didn't think an average of +5 per round was too bad given the time that had passed since I last played and from what I can recall of the courses back then, they were far easier than those on Q-School and the winds now.........well I won't even go there! To try and get back to the standard I was previously at, I've been playing the tournaments on the other tours and I'll be honest, they have been a godsend, though I must add that I wouldn't have made a cut on any of them! Having already known about TGC Tours as previously mentioned, I was also aware of the Tips and Tricks thread under the Driving Range section but sadly never referred to that when playing Q-School but having re-read the thread, that has definitely helped me also.
In hindsight I wish I had delayed Q-School by a week to accustom myself again as I know I could go much lower now. I think that previous experience has certainly helped me get back to a decent level. I've also played golf games for 20+ years and in all honesty the gameplay really hasn't changed at all. In fact it's just like riding a bike!
So I hope I have been able to explain my situation to you. I've no doubt that there could be players out there who shoot a crappy Q-School just to try and win a tournament on of the lower tier tours and if they want to do that then, whilst I don't condone it, that's there prerogative. Personally, I couldn't care less if I finish first or last. There's the old saying that 'it's the taking part that counts' and that is my sentiment exactly. In fact, I actually shot a 62 in my first round and signed for a 67 in error so I think I could have actually won the tournament so there you go. Being a part of the tour is all that matters to me (though I'll be honest, if real money was given out for winning tournaments then I'd probably cheat till my heart's content!).
Cheers.
Paul
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 17:42:56 GMT -5
Hi Wagtunes. I'm assuming the player you're referring to is me and if that is indeed the case then you haven't pi**ed me off! I note from your opening post that the player you refer to is 'brand new'. Well I am a new TGC Tours member but I'm not new to the game, well not exactly. I actually purchased the game following its release on the Xbox One. Played it for many months and got to what I would call a pretty decent level before I sold my console in early 2015 as cash was needed to fund a house move. With the move completed and the finances in place, I bought a PS4 just over a month ago. A good friend of mine has been a TGC Tours member since July 2015 hence I've actually been following the site since then, though he lost interest quite quickly and as I never had a console I couldn't play the game..........until now! I was really excited about joining TGC Tours as the only thing I didn't like about the game when I initially owned it was the lack of an online career mode, so I swiftly downloaded it from the Store and signed up. Unfortunately, being the impatient person I am, as soon as I loaded the game I headed straight for Q-School with no prior practice whatsoever. Needless to say from my performance on the first few holes that there had clearly been a LOT of updates since I last played it but again, being Mr Impatient, I continued on and finished Q-School with a score of +30. I didn't think an average of +5 per round was too bad given the time that had passed since I last played and from what I can recall of the courses back then, they were far easier than those on Q-School and the winds now.........well I won't even go there! To try and get back to the standard I was previously at, I've been playing the tournaments on the other tours and I'll be honest, they have been a godsend, though I must add that I wouldn't have made a cut on any of them! Having already known about TGC Tours as previously mentioned, I was also aware of the Tips and Tricks thread under the Driving Range section but sadly never referred to that when playing Q-School but having re-read the thread, that has definitely helped me also. In hindsight I wish I had delayed Q-School by a week to accustom myself again as I know I could go much lower now. I think that previous experience has certainly helped me get back to a decent level. I've also played golf games for 20+ years and in all honesty the gameplay really hasn't changed at all. In fact it's just like riding a bike! So I hope I have been able to explain my situation to you. I've no doubt that there could be players out there who shoot a crappy Q-School just to try and win a tournament on of the lower tier tours and if they want to do that then, whilst I don't condone it, that's there prerogative. Personally, I couldn't care less if I finish first or last. There's the old saying that 'it's the taking part that counts' and that is my sentiment exactly. In fact, I actually shot a 62 in my first round and signed for a 67 in error so I think I could have actually won the tournament so there you go. Being a part of the tour is all that matters to me (though I'll be honest, if real money was given out for winning tournaments then I'd probably cheat till my heart's content!). Cheers. Paul Paul, that may actually explain a lot and something I hadn't considered. Somebody rushes into Q School, does poorly, puts off playing in tournaments until they actually get better (what I should have done) and so their first live event, they shoot lights out. Makes perfect sense and the missing piece of the puzzle because this was driving me crazy trying to logically think through this. In hindsight, even though I qualified for D Class out of Q School originally, I should have taken the time to study the scores, to see what I'd have to shoot to compete, practice until I reached that level (took me about 3 months) and THEN and ONLY THEN play my first tournament. I'd probably be in C Class right now had I done that. Thank you for the explanation. Shows you how stupid I am that I can't see what's right in front of my face, that people actually have enough sense to not play in the tour until they're ready and not rush into it like I did even though my Q School performance was abysmal. You live and learn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 17:45:20 GMT -5
So then it's possible to do better on the harder courses (as I did in Q School) but not as well on the easier courses as others who can't handle the harder courses as well? Cause that's the only thing that makes sense to explain our scores this week. Because with all things being equal, I should have scored better than this person as I was playing the same easy course as he did. Yet, I didn't even come close to his score. This is what I can't explain. If you can, I'm all ears. You're a human being. Sometimes you choke on an easier course because you think it's easier and you make mistakes. And those who can't handle the hard courses go into the easier courses and realize they can do well, so they focus a little more. Just because someone did poorly on one set of courses doesn't mean they'll automatically do well on another set. And vice versa. Other than Ian Sweeney, none of us are machines, and so results can vary. Thanks, this also makes perfect sense. I tend to miss way too many easy shots because I don't concentrate enough BECAUSE I think the course is easy. My 3 inch misses could fill a scrap book. So yeah, I definitely have to work on that part of my game because technically, I know I can play better than I do. But like you said, I'm not a machine.
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JohnDH
Weekend Golfer
The Super
Posts: 107
TGCT Name: John Hibbs
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Post by JohnDH on Feb 6, 2016 18:29:51 GMT -5
I can only say that being new to the game, I went into QS last week not doing any research. I never played the courses prior, and went in blind. Finished -2 collectively, good enough for CC-C. After leaving a bunch of shots out there thus deciding to do research to help me out, I found the thread on how to better play winds, elevation, lies, and putting. I also played St George a bunch of times prior to this week. It payed off as I'm in the thick of an exemption to CC-B and thus feel like I have a much better grasp on the game. I guess my point is while understanding your frustration, it's possible to get better in a short amount of time. I like the formats and the way the website formulates everything. The guys here do a great job. Just impossible to make everyone happy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 18:33:02 GMT -5
Hi Wagtunes. I'm assuming the player you're referring to is me and if that is indeed the case then you haven't pi**ed me off! I note from your opening post that the player you refer to is 'brand new'. Well I am a new TGC Tours member but I'm not new to the game, well not exactly. I actually purchased the game following its release on the Xbox One. Played it for many months and got to what I would call a pretty decent level before I sold my console in early 2015 as cash was needed to fund a house move. With the move completed and the finances in place, I bought a PS4 just over a month ago. A good friend of mine has been a TGC Tours member since July 2015 hence I've actually been following the site since then, though he lost interest quite quickly and as I never had a console I couldn't play the game..........until now! I was really excited about joining TGC Tours as the only thing I didn't like about the game when I initially owned it was the lack of an online career mode, so I swiftly downloaded it from the Store and signed up. Unfortunately, being the impatient person I am, as soon as I loaded the game I headed straight for Q-School with no prior practice whatsoever. Needless to say from my performance on the first few holes that there had clearly been a LOT of updates since I last played it but again, being Mr Impatient, I continued on and finished Q-School with a score of +30. I didn't think an average of +5 per round was too bad given the time that had passed since I last played and from what I can recall of the courses back then, they were far easier than those on Q-School and the winds now.........well I won't even go there! To try and get back to the standard I was previously at, I've been playing the tournaments on the other tours and I'll be honest, they have been a godsend, though I must add that I wouldn't have made a cut on any of them! Having already known about TGC Tours as previously mentioned, I was also aware of the Tips and Tricks thread under the Driving Range section but sadly never referred to that when playing Q-School but having re-read the thread, that has definitely helped me also. In hindsight I wish I had delayed Q-School by a week to accustom myself again as I know I could go much lower now. I think that previous experience has certainly helped me get back to a decent level. I've also played golf games for 20+ years and in all honesty the gameplay really hasn't changed at all. In fact it's just like riding a bike! So I hope I have been able to explain my situation to you. I've no doubt that there could be players out there who shoot a crappy Q-School just to try and win a tournament on of the lower tier tours and if they want to do that then, whilst I don't condone it, that's there prerogative. Personally, I couldn't care less if I finish first or last. There's the old saying that 'it's the taking part that counts' and that is my sentiment exactly. In fact, I actually shot a 62 in my first round and signed for a 67 in error so I think I could have actually won the tournament so there you go. Being a part of the tour is all that matters to me (though I'll be honest, if real money was given out for winning tournaments then I'd probably cheat till my heart's content!). Cheers. Paul Paul, that may actually explain a lot and something I hadn't considered. Somebody rushes into Q School, does poorly, puts off playing in tournaments until they actually get better (what I should have done) and so their first live event, they shoot lights out. Makes perfect sense and the missing piece of the puzzle because this was driving me crazy trying to logically think through this. In hindsight, even though I qualified for D Class out of Q School originally, I should have taken the time to study the scores, to see what I'd have to shoot to compete, practice until I reached that level (took me about 3 months) and THEN and ONLY THEN play my first tournament. I'd probably be in C Class right now had I done that. Thank you for the explanation. Shows you how stupid I am that I can't see what's right in front of my face, that people actually have enough sense to not play in the tour until they're ready and not rush into it like I did even though my Q School performance was abysmal. You live and learn. No problem at all mate and you're not stupid, though I'm offended you've said my Q-School was poor (joke)! Sadly, impatient is my middle name and I think I just expected to pick up the game from where I left off so just went gung-ho but sadly it had changed so much to the point that, as an example, I used to use a clicking system when trying to play those 3pm/9pm winds (ie. clicking the analogue left or right to compensate for the wind) but it was completely out and flop shots without actually using loft are so much harder. But I'm steadily getting to grips with the changes and like I said, having already played the game has certainly given me a head start on my return. Anyway, no offence taken and the best of luck to you sir.
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Post by ErixonStone on Feb 6, 2016 22:33:14 GMT -5
When I first started with this game, I first hopped into the designer and published two of my own courses (They are awful; don't ask) .
Then I went and actually played them. I shot 88, 89, 91. I couldn't hit straight at all and routinely putted off greens. I couldn't even fathom competing online and I hadn't even heard of TGC tours.
Eventually, after about a week, I figured out the swing and stopped putting off the greens. I played enough rounds where I was breaking par on most courses. I finished the 2015 Q school at +7, narrowly missing the Web.com tour and instead placing into CC-A.
I think, for most people, it takes a few rounds to figure out the swing and the putting stroke, and then they can be pretty consistent. Once that happens, the scores are night and day.
This is a video game. Wild improvements happen almost overnight. It doesn't take years of playing to become good, and it isn't surprising that someone would be terrible one day and then a week or two later be significantly better. Going from god-awful to good happens quickly because it's a matter of mastering a simple mechanic. Going from good to great takes a lot of effort and experience.
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ziba
Caddy
Posts: 63
TGCT Name: Ziba Mackenzie
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Post by ziba on Feb 7, 2016 8:46:34 GMT -5
Hey Wag
You do seem to post alot about "unfair things" & that does bug me as it is an entitlement generation thing (IE - this is a free web comp effectively funded by kind folks time, not such a position of strength for your perceived fairness entitlement mentality.)
However, today I must acknowledge, well done in accepting the positions above regarding this. I'm sure some sandbagging occurs but we are really all here for fun, unless the cash is real & then, let the rorting begin :-)
Ziba
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