5150
Caddy
Posts: 36
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Post by 5150 on Jan 20, 2020 20:19:28 GMT -5
So IRL I am not a grip-and-rip off the tee box guy. I get bored easily when the tee shot is always (except the par 3s) a driver. It’s more fun to look at the hole, try to understand what the architect was up to and choose the RIGHT shot and the RIGHT club.
To that end I am trying to design TGC courses the same way: there’s a driver option, maybe a 3w option, maybe a hybrid or long iron - at least 2 or 3 ways to play the hole depending on risk/reward tolerance.
Is there a prevailing preference in TGC course design? What’s the general feel around these parts? Driver all day or make the player think?
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Post by tpetro on Jan 20, 2020 20:30:04 GMT -5
MAKE THEM THINK - hitting driver is way too easy in this game to make a compelling course without options
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Post by Oscar C on Jan 20, 2020 20:34:40 GMT -5
From a designers perspective the goal is to make them think but sometimes it is still driver but where is the question. Do you hit it right and have an approach with less room to work with or left where the angle helps you. Sure you can make the left approach shorter to trick them or you could make them the same and trick them even more by not checking the approach to the green.
Its also a learning curve from the designers position. Sure i can create a neat hole now that looks nice but is it a challenge or is it as you say - grip it and rip it.
Thats what sets the good courses from the great courses.
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Post by rjwils30 on Jan 20, 2020 20:53:53 GMT -5
Make em think but don’t make the decisions on every tee obvious or overly contrived. Create some holes that allow you to bomb it and some that are more optimally played by clubbing down. I typically assume most guys are going to hit driver regardless of what I put in their way. The trick is finding ways to make the next shot variable depending on what decision was made off the tee. Angles are a good way to do this. I often allow players to bomb it at the expense of a good angle into the green. It’s tough to pull off but it can lead to some pretty interesting hole designs.
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5150
Caddy
Posts: 36
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Post by 5150 on Jan 20, 2020 20:57:03 GMT -5
Make em think but don’t make the decisions on every tee obvious or overly contrived. Create some holes that allow you to bomb it and some that are more optimally played by clubbing down. I typically assume most guys are going to hit driver regardless of what I put in their way. The trick is finding ways to make the next shot variable depending on what decision was made off the tee. Angles are a good way to do this. I often allow players to bomb it at the expense of a good angle into the green. It’s tough to pull off but it can lead to some pretty interesting hole designs. Well said. I try not to just obviously take the driver out of their hands but instead make the player think about it before hitting - yeah, I could bomb away, but it’s a little more narrow up there and if the wind is up I could carry into that gorse bush at the end of the fairway... that kinda thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 0:44:01 GMT -5
As long as it isn't the same every hole it's fine. Some designers overuse holes where greens are contoured in such a way that only a wedge shot will hold them on short but not reachable par 4s, punishing players who just rip driver. It's totally fine but having 5 of those on a course gets boring.
The hard thing to do is to design a hole with options where some are clearly better than others for a given pin but the penalty for not picking the correct play is neither insignificant nor overly harsh. Those rare holes you can play any way but they're still easier from some spots than others. I think Reeb and Mayo in general are excellent at doing this, especially on short 4s, but a lot of other good strategic designers manage to pull it off as well.
Then there's one of my personal favorites, the 'silent jail.' The 'oh this hole looks simple, grip and rip' so that a lot of players don't realize they're out of position until it's already too late. In those cases it's usually not an impossible second shot (on par 4s at least) but much of the time it's enough to take birdie out of the equation almost entirely.
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Post by Oscar C on Jan 21, 2020 1:11:22 GMT -5
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Post by linkslover on Jan 21, 2020 7:11:25 GMT -5
A mixture on a course is definitely best. Too many (or all) of one or the other and it can become either a bit of a grind or a bit boring.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Jan 21, 2020 7:48:39 GMT -5
Pretty much yes to what everybody's said above, especially what Adam said about silent jail.
Typically I don't try to take driver out of player's hands -- if I do, maybe once of twice a round -- rather I try to make hitting driver interesting. That could be done heorically (i.e. putting some sort of hazard(s) near the optimal line) and making the drive seem intimidating, or it could be done subtly with angles and camber. Some of my favorite holes are ones where you have a 40-yard wide fairway, but you need to cheat to one side to be left with the best angle in, effectively cutting the target area by at least half.
Either way the premise is if you hit driver, you need to be accurate and, if you are, you've gained an advantage over someone who has hit driver inaccurately or has chosen a more conservative approach.
This holds true until short par 4s, then all bets are off and I've made plenty of holes where it seems like you can blast driver/2W only to be left to an awkward pitch to a green that runs away, whereas laying back would leave you a full club in, and a better chance of hitting in close. 13 at Fisheye is a great example. I've seen several playthrus where players don't feel quite confident enough to drive the green, so they play long down the left and leave themselves about a 60-yard pitch with a green running away. I've seen very few birdies made that way on a hole that plays about 310 yards.
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Post by AFCTUJacko on Jan 21, 2020 8:11:27 GMT -5
As a player my only request is that if you're going to have a narrow landing zone for Drives, give the player a GENUINE safer option.
In practice, that means if your landing area @ 300 yards is 10 yards wide, then make your landing zone @ 250 much much wider. Particularly in higher winds, taking the drive on is a risk, but if you pull it off you're rewarded for it. Or you can play conservatively, hit the 3W into a fat bit of fairway and leave yourself a longer approach. It's a genuine strategic choice
Fairways which is 10 yards wide @ 200,250,300 and forever isn't really making the player make a choice. When the "safe" option is just as risky as the Driver, in most cases there's no reason not to hit the driver. I see a lot of this on some PGA courses, because designers think it's the only way to make people miss fairways.
But it's boring, because all it does is put even more of a premium on accurate shot making. There's no way out for people whose swing might be a bit wonkier but like to think their way around a golf course.
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Post by lessthanbread on Jan 21, 2020 9:57:33 GMT -5
I like to give multiple driver options (as well as shorter club options) and play with the angles and distance. The easier driver shot looks appealing and doesn't take the big stick out of their hands but there might be a more aggressive option elsewhere like cutting a corner to get a bit closer or to get a better angle into the green.
My opening hole on Mighty Oak Lodge & Ranch is a good example of this strategy. You can easily hit driver straight ahead but you're sill left with a 6-iron in because the hole curves hard to the right. You can also take on a large bunker and try to cut the distance down to a 9-iron or wedge
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5150
Caddy
Posts: 36
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Post by 5150 on Jan 21, 2020 11:19:46 GMT -5
It gets complex when considering Beginner/Pro/Master clubs as well.
Right now I’m designing my first course and am thinking thru a risk/reward short par 4. There’s a slope the big hitters can reach with driver that will roll to the fringe or the green, but if you don’t catch the slope right there’s gorse bushes in play.
Beginner clubs hitting driver won’t reach the slope. The right play for them is probably a 3w, 5w or driver.
Pro clubs can reach the slope with driver. Conservative play off the tee is 5i.
Master clubs can reach the slope and perhaps the gorse if the wind is right.
Lots to think thru.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 21, 2020 12:48:36 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much all of the above.
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cutchemist42
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 103
TGCT Name: hamster1984
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Post by cutchemist42 on Mar 22, 2020 19:13:48 GMT -5
I think even on master clubs the driver shot dispersion is too tight and I'm not even a great player...playing a round around -7 usually.
Driver shot dispersion is usually much more wild in real life even for PGA players, probably 40-50 yards wide.
I think if the dispersion was modelled that way a hit more in the game it would be more strategic.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Mar 22, 2020 21:42:56 GMT -5
. 13 at Fisheye is a great example. I've seen several playthrus where players don't feel quite confident enough to drive the green, so they play long down the left and leave themselves about a 60-yard pitch with a green running away. I've seen very few birdies made that way on a hole that plays about 310 yards. The only driveable par 4 in the game where I hit a 4 iron off the tee every time. One of my favorite designs ever.
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