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Post by lessthanbread on Oct 2, 2019 11:24:07 GMT -5
I thought it would be a cool idea to start a thread dedicated to designers and golfers alike to share ideas on how to improve as a designer.
Here are a few questions to spur conversation and sharing but feel free to go off on any tangents you like.
For Designers: Describe your designing journey Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved) How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)?
What are your best skills as a designer? What are things you need to work on? What types of courses do you like to design most? Which theme is your favorite? How much time do you think is required to design a quality course? What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master?
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer?
For Golfers: What do you look for in a good course design? What are some of your favorite courses and why? Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself? How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above?
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Post by ErixonStone on Oct 3, 2019 20:24:59 GMT -5
For Designers: Describe your designing journey Where did you start? Started in earnest with TGC1 in July 2015. A golf round piqued my dormant interest in golf and I started searching for a golf game that had a course designer on PC. There was an indie XBox360 game that had a course editor which was fun to mess around with. Found TGC1. My first two courses were auto-gen.
Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved) It's not even close to where I started. I go back and look at old TGC1 courses and they're just terrible with so many technical flaws and playability issues. Now, I'm significantly better, but so is everyone else, rendering me just average in this community.
How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)? While I dabbled in that indie game, and owned Sim Golf, and designed courses in Greg Norman's Power Golf (NES), I got serious about course design near the end of 2015.
What are your best skills as a designer? Building risk/reward options. This is something I look to do on almost every hole - sometimes obvious and sometimes subtle; sometimes the reward is worth the risk and sometimes it isn't. I've been very happy with my latest courses in this regard.
What are things you need to work on? Building central features to add visual interest. It's something I really want to focus on with my next original design.
What types of courses do you like to design most? Deceptively challenging courses set in rugged, wooded or coastal environments. I like bringing the natural elements closer to the playing area.
Which theme is your favorite? Winter. Sadly, it didn't make its way into TGC2019. In TGC2019, Autumn.
How much time do you think is required to design a quality course? 50 hours, minimum.
What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master? Smoothing terrain. Flattening terrain. Measuring for scale. Planning.
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer? Watch other designers work. Ask lots of questions. Try to learn the "why" as much as the "how" designers do what they do. Collaborate.
For Golfers: What do you look for in a good course design? Strategic options, visual interest.
What are some of your favorite courses and why? Tye Dunes - excellent greens take advantage of the absurd concrete "firm" setting in TGC1. Turo Wero - best waste bunkers of any TGC course, ever. St. Cyrus - I love the width and angles on this course. It's wide open making it easy for novice players to manage, but there's lots of strategic options that expert players can exploit for low scores. Raynor Ridge - best template course; best use of lighting to highlight sculpting features.
Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself? They mean a lot. Video game golf is purely visual - you can't smell the grass or feel the wind - so making a course look good and feel active is the best way to immerse the player in the game.
How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above? 75-100 hours.
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Post by sandsaver01 on Oct 4, 2019 9:14:40 GMT -5
Firstly let apologize for the length of this post; once I started I just rambled on,
For Designers: Describe your designing journey Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved)
I started designing when I played Tiger Woods 08 and joined the PGAX (later changed to CGAX after the PGA gave us a cease and desist order lol). I was designing on a PC and did all types of courses; from RCR such as Pine Valley and Koolau to various fantasy courses.
We did not have Lidar data back then, but we were able to import 3 meter DEM data into the course architect and use that for at least basic terrain features. I loved the TW08 Course architect for its ability to make your own textures, buildings and other features. I stopped playing and designing in about 2012.
How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)?
I found TGC2019 by accident during a Google search for something about 6 months ago and bought it for my PS4. I got the design bug immediately and after watching Andre’s and other’s YouTube videos I started designing again. After designing some realistic type courses, I really wanted to mess with Lidar so I bought another copy of TGC2019 and am now nearly done with Crooked Stick GC 2018 Lidar.
What are your best skills as a designer?
I feel that is up to the people who play and review my courses to say. I think I am quite good at making a complete environment around the course, buildings, houses, objects, etc.
What are things you need to work on?
I am sure there are a lot of those. I do run out of imagination for laying out a course that has interest and not too many boring holes. That is one of the reasons I am starting to work with Lidar – someone else has done the designing for me and it is up to me to carry out their vision to the best of my ability.
What types of courses do you like to design most?
I haven’t done that many, but it has become obvious to me that most of my designs are “natural” types; weeds, lots of bushes and plants, etc. I had a yen to do a “manicured” course but every time I started I just didn't feel it.
Which theme is your favorite?
I intended to design a course using each theme. Started with Boreal, then Tropical, Swiss, Delta, and Highlands for my Rookie Design course. So far I enjoy Delta the best.
How much time do you think is required to design a quality course?
It takes me at least 100 hours for my courses. As I am retired I can devote a lot of time to it so I can still turn out one a month or so.
What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master?
I agree with Patrick on that
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer?
Videos and playing premier designers courses; I am a terrible thief of others ideas!
For Golfers: What do you look for in a good course design?
Playability, interesting mix of challenges, good sculpting and smoothing, atmosphere. Also fun to play – if a course is SO challenging that you are cursing all the time it is not a good design for me.
What are some of your favorite courses and why?
Arnica golf Club, Romania; Necedah Pines GC are some of the newer ones; Adam Hill Intl PGA has been around a while. All of these meet the above criteria, but there a number of others.
Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself?
I think that both are very important. One without the other can still be a good course but not a great one.
How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above?
I would assume at least 100 hours, but it could be more.
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Post by linkslover on Oct 8, 2019 6:46:11 GMT -5
For Designers: Describe your designing journey Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved) About a year after TGC2 came out I started. I've improved massively in that time with attention to detail and planting and improved in sculpting. How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)? I used to sketch golf hole designs as a kid when bored. Started again when I picked up TGC2. I'm 41 now so that's a big gap. What are your best skills as a designer? Layouts and ideas for holes. Some of them quite quirky. Or in the case of Quirk Park on TGC2, all of them. Others include two greens on the 15th at Angus Bay International, three fairways on the 14th at Clayton Wood and tee off a cliff on the 2nd at The Swiss Wall. I have loads of ideas. What are things you need to work on? Sculpting. Still. Still find aspects of it tricky. What types of courses do you like to design most? Links. Obviously. Which theme is your favorite? Highlands given the absence of a proper links theme. How much time do you think is required to design a quality course? Rule of thumb in the region of 100 hours or so... but having said that, how long is a piece of string? What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master? Sculpting, planting, design ideas. Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer? Tutorial videos, in particular Andre's. For Golfers: What do you look for in a good course design? Course layout, scenery, variety (to a degree) What are some of your favorite courses and why? There are far too many really good courses I haven't played because I simply don't have time these days. Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself? Yes, though most important is the course layout. How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above? 100 hours plus
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Post by lessthanbread on Oct 8, 2019 10:04:26 GMT -5
I'll play my own game.
For Designers:
Describe your designing journey
Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved)
I think I have improved a fair amount so far. I'm still pretty new and only have 2 courses published but have cut out many rookie mistakes from my first course.
How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)?
Just started course design on TGC 2019 in February
What are your best skills as a designer?
Scenery, waterfalls, providing memorable heroic-type shots
What are things you need to work on?
Golf course architecture. I know next to nothing about it and I think it would help me a lot if I studied some. Fairway sculpting. Most of my fairways tend to be very flat. Would like to work on getting some more undulations to provide interesting landing areas and challenging approaches off slopes
What types of courses do you like to design most?
Wooded, mountainous, fictional courses
Which theme is your favorite?
So far Swiss but I'm really starting to like Delta in the WIP I'm working on
How much time do you think is required to design a quality course?
For me, around 200 hours. I'm slow and deliberate and I playtest much more than I probably need to.
What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master?
Smooth sculpting, sight lines, sense of scale, patience, perfectionist mentality
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer?
Andre's videos. Playing other designers' courses and really paying attention to what they do well and what their mistakes are
For Golfers:
What do you look for in a good course design?
Fun, challenging yet rewarding layout and beautiful views
What are some of your favorite courses and why?
Kermode Club. The first course I ever saw on TGC when I came across Andre's youtube channel. Love mountain courses and his use of large-scale scenery is awesome here Ardoilien. Game changer. Best sculpting ever and so much fun to play. Amaryllis Club. Amazing creativity out of AF here. Caves and waterfalls are stunning and the course is so much fun to play
Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself?
They mean a heck of a lot to me. If I'm being honest, probably mean more to me than the course itself. For me, this is a work of art more than just simply designing a golf course.
How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above? Less time than I take I'm sure but that's because they are all very experienced designers who know exactly what they're doing
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Post by jivesinator on Oct 9, 2019 12:23:03 GMT -5
I’ll go ahead and join in.
For Designers: Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved)
I started about the middle? of the TGC1 cycle and I could barely do more than autogen. I consider myself above average in the designer now and it’s been a long journey of combining ability with the designer and ability to come up with the ideas needed to put together a course.
How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)?
TGC has been my only experience with it; most of the previous titles that included a good golf course design sandbox were too old for me to get into them. I’ve also sketched golf holes for most of my childhood, though I haven’t had as much time to do so recently.
What are your best skills as a designer?
Sculpting and land movement is easily my strongest skill, as well as the placement of surfaces and textures (which I don’t really think is necessarily a ‘skill’ per se, as it has a heavy dependence on other skills such as sculpting and hole design).
What are things you need to work on?
Planting has been and always will be where I need more work. Aside from that, I’ve fallen flat on the methods I use to produce my courses too often, most notably in routing and in placing surfaces, which has produced a feeling that my courses are becoming too similar to each other in those respects.
What types of courses do you like to design most? Open, strategic courses with a lot of “routes” to the hole. Think courses like Bandon, Sand Hills, Cabot, etc.
Which theme is your favorite? Delta without a doubt. A ton of versatility, the best tree models in the game in my opinion, an easy to work with coastline, and a very friendly theme for placing surfaces.
How much time do you think is required to design a quality course?
This is dependent on the style of course, the specs of the computer or console you’re working with, and the workflow of the designer themselves. The minimum for an above average to elite course is probably around the 60-80 hour range, and I’ve heard numbers far larger than that, especially with non-LiDAR rcr’s.
What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master?
My stance is that a designer needs to develop three things above all others: basic understanding of most of the designer’s features (sculpting, object placement, hole waypoints, surfacing, etc.) and designing an efficient workflow with them, a grasp of the most well-known and utilized concepts in the golf course architecture practice, and a hell of a lot of time and patience.
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer?
The easiest and most effective way to improve is to actively look for inspiration from as many sources as you can. A lot of our really good designers are active on either Twitch or YouTube and will often share their work there; look out for the Shoutbox because it’s common to see them post their links there. I’d also suggest researching courses, both in TGC and the real world, as a lot of the ideas you will have have, in part or in whole, already been done before.
For Golfers: What do you look for in a good course design?
A sequence of holes that challenges both the skill and decision making of a golfer.
What are some of your favorite courses and why?
(In rough order of publish)
Oakland Hills (rcr from TGC1, ported to 2019) My absolute favorite rcr, both in terms of the skill behind it and the layout of the course itself. It was extremely fun in the days of the shorter club distance of TGC1.
Hoodoo Hills (only in TGC1) The most “holy-sh%$-worthy” of any course I’ve ever played in this franchise. The visuals on it would be elite if it was released today and this thing was made nearly 4 years ago. The course itself was great, though not perfect, but I will always consider it the best course of that first game.
The Silverback As of now my favorite all-time course. It falls short on playability once or twice for casual play but that’s the biggest fault I have with it. It has everything: a fun routing, risk-reward factor on basically every hole, essentially flawless execution everywhere you could look, and an amazing and unique environment.
Necedah Pines My favorite course of 2019 and a close second to Silverback all time. The most immersive environment of all time for a course, an absurd amount of detail, surfacing that is, as of now, unparalleled, and so many other things make Necedah the most innovative course in the TGC series.
Do aesthetics mean anything to you or are you solely focused on the course itself?
Aesthetics are best used as devices for directing the player’s eyes towards the course itself. It’s easy to fall into the trap of putting things down for the player to have something to look at, and all that adds for me is a distraction from the most important thing for a golfer: the next shot. Someone starting off on their design journey doesn’t need distractions, they need to use aesthetics to supplement the rest of their work.
How much time do you estimate it took to design some of the favorite courses you mentioned above?
Probably 120 hours or so at least, probably closer to 200+
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Post by lessthanbread on Oct 9, 2019 12:52:49 GMT -5
Another thing I would like to add is I love the use of elevation in design. Not referring to uphill/downhill shots, but the routing of the course. A great example of this is Sindre's Geiranger course. It's one thing to build a fantastic course spread out across a relatively flat piece of land, but to build the course so holes are almost on top of each other on a mountainside is truly stunning.
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Post by deaconstar003 on Oct 16, 2019 14:55:12 GMT -5
I thought I’d give this an answer... Describe your designing journey. Where did you start? Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved) How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)? -I actually started in TGC 1, and the game was the reason I traded in my Wii at GameStop and used my saved money to get an Xbox One. At the time, I never understood the power in the designer, so I would do auto gen courses with created holes (just routing basically). This was plenty for me then, but as time went by, and new games came out, I went for more detailed courses. Custom bunkers. Practice facilities. Cart paths. Tournament objects. And then I finally decided to get TGC 2019 in March after debating whether it was an improvement over TGC2. And boy I won’t regret that purchase. Over the last summer, I finally designed my first fully custom course from scratch, Palmetto Links, and discovered TGC Tours. (To that point I though CrazyCanuck’s YouTube channel was the entire design community 😂) I’ve learned so much from this community so quickly, but the most important lesson I’ve learned is patience. Making a good course takes way more time than I’d thought. Although I still enjoy my 2 hour designs, I know now that they’re not really the best way to make a course. -As far as outside TGC, I’ve been designing holes and courses on paper (especially when out to dinner) since I was five, so ten years now. What are your best skills as a designer? -I think it’s my ideas for the holes. If the Rookie Contest was on paper I think I would be closer to the top, but I’m still finding out about the little things in the designer that go a long way. I also think that my courses are very mathy, if that makes sense. I’m very math brained, so looking at yardages to carry hazards and other impediments and creating risk/reward shots is something I like. However, I think I keep those shots open, so there aren’t just the two options, but a stream of spots to land your ball. What are things you need to work on? -Technical stuff in the designer I think. Splines being smoother, jagged bunker edges that look glitchy even though the ground is smooth, smoother slope sculpting, etc. What types of courses do you like to design most? -I enjoy designing major/tournament venues. Like I mentioned above, the risk/reward factor really matters here. Which theme is your favorite? -Probably tropical because it’s lush and the grass textures are very bold shades of green like those from edited photos of exotic places. How much time do you think is required to design a quality course? -I think it depends. For my solo society schedule, probably around 2-5 hours. (My pet peeve for tournaments is having crowds and bleachers and courses with them are rare on TGCT, so I’m usually designing my own if I don’t want to get murdered by the Major Contest courses) For a TGCT effort, maybe 20-25ish. My Rookie course was probably around 40-60 but I didn’t keep track. Honestly, I design and tweak until I’m happy with the product, so it’s hard to put a time on that. I feel like the holes just flow out of me without thinking onto the screen and then I go from there. What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master? -Just basic TGC designer skills. Using the fuzzy brush, patience, splines, planting, etc. I think it comes over time. Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer? I think just trying stuff in my courses. Having an element you want on a hole but not knowing how to do it makes you figure stuff out. Also, the forums and YouTube/Twitch for tips. Although, playing other courses doesn’t help me at all surprisingly.
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Post by ohheycat on Oct 16, 2019 15:34:00 GMT -5
I definitelt like reading these responses, keep them coming.
I don't know if I just design slow or waste too much time. Im working on something now and I constantly find myself flying around the plot looking for a missed opportunity or.. something. I told my wife earlier "Im not even doing anything im just looking around"for half an hour and then I take the fuzzy brush and smooth a rough transition in a fairway. When I caught myself it made me think. I want to know how you guys stay productive, because Ill spend 10 hours on a plot and 5 to 6 hours on each hole and thats the main reason I havent put anything out in quite a while. Ive only recently picked it back up
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Post by lessthanbread on Oct 16, 2019 15:59:52 GMT -5
I definitelt like reading these responses, keep them coming. I don't know if I just design slow or waste too much time. Im working on something now and I constantly find myself flying around the plot looking for a missed opportunity or.. something. I told my wife earlier "Im not even doing anything im just looking around"for half an hour and then I take the fuzzy brush and smooth a rough transition in a fairway. When I caught myself it made me think. I want to know how you guys stay productive, because Ill spend 10 hours on a plot and 5 to 6 hours on each hole and thats the main reason I havent put anything out in quite a while. Ive only recently picked it back up I'm right there with you a lot of the time. For me, I think I playtest way too much. I'll add some planting behind a green, playtest to see how it looks and end up playtesting 5 or 6 more holes to try and find other things wrong or that I could improve. I think a lot of time is wasted if you jump around to different things and get too far into the details too early because you're likely to change things anyway at the end. But it's so easy to jump into something you know you should wait until the end to do. I made a lot of fast progress on my first course when I sat down and told myself "okay, you're only going to lay green surfaces down. Do nothing else until you build your greens for all 18 holes. Don't even look at anything else, just finish one and jump to the next." Set a goal for yourself to do one thing for all 18 holes before moving on to something else. Much easier said than done though, I know
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Post by ohheycat on Oct 16, 2019 16:29:23 GMT -5
I definitelt like reading these responses, keep them coming. I don't know if I just design slow or waste too much time. Im working on something now and I constantly find myself flying around the plot looking for a missed opportunity or.. something. I told my wife earlier "Im not even doing anything im just looking around"for half an hour and then I take the fuzzy brush and smooth a rough transition in a fairway. When I caught myself it made me think. I want to know how you guys stay productive, because Ill spend 10 hours on a plot and 5 to 6 hours on each hole and thats the main reason I havent put anything out in quite a while. Ive only recently picked it back up I'm right there with you a lot of the time. For me, I think I playtest way too much. I'll add some planting behind a green, playtest to see how it looks and end up playtesting 5 or 6 more holes to try and find other things wrong or that I could improve. I think a lot of time is wasted if you jump around to different things and get too far into the details too early because you're likely to change things anyway at the end. But it's so easy to jump into something you know you should wait until the end to do. I made a lot of fast progress on my first course when I sat down and told myself "okay, you're only going to lay green surfaces down. Do nothing else until you build your greens for all 18 holes. Don't even look at anything else, just finish one and jump to the next." Set a goal for yourself to do one thing for all 18 holes before moving on to something else. Much easier said than done though, I know Problem with that is my current wip is pushing the limits on my capabilities. I am making a volcanic island for lack of a better word, and to prevent the course from getting too fantasy, I have opted to path it. The high to low points of the path exceed 100 feet already. What this means is I pretty much have to sculpt as I go so each hole has to be 90 percent done before moving on, or I risk having to run it through the compactor. The paths are doing a great job at keeping the course toned down though. I lack the ability to commit to a routing and presculpt the plot entirely. Perhaps that is my real issue. Maybe Ill try that with the back 9, but i doubt it. Due in 2021.. my wip hah
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Post by popeyedoyle0 on Oct 22, 2019 19:56:15 GMT -5
I bought TGC Golf Club 2019 for the creative design of making golf courses on my xbox one. This is right up my alley I love the art of the design aspect in creating a golf course. My first few tries were not that good as I was learning how to use the tools to design a course. The great people here and the posts that I have read have helped me become a better course designer.
The aesthetics are what I remember most on the courses I have played, that means a lot to me. I like a visually stunning course I get lots of ideas but it also has to be fun to play.
The course I am working on now has taken many hours with lots of trial and error but I'm taking my time on this one in hopes of getting a good course that players will enjoy playing.
I'm giving players options from the tees to where on the fairway they wish to place the ball for there second shot it also was suggested that I put more slope or raise areas up to create tiers for different pins on my greens that is a very good idea I hadn't thought of.
I want the course to be challenging but fair for the better players and not too hard that players don't enjoy there experience playing I guess you have to find that balance that will work?
I also like to have my design critiqued I may have some bad design that I don't realize that an experienced designer can point out there are so many good designed courses and great people here to learn from.
I like planting along fairways and greens tucking rocks into the side of hills making streams and lakes when players enjoy the course it makes it all worth the effort. I just try to get better with each new design the goal is to put players into your creation and for them to enjoy the sights and game play.
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Post by scarpacci on Nov 13, 2019 18:15:18 GMT -5
Short answers....
Describe your designing journey
Where did you start?
TGC1, when first released on the PS4.
Where are you now? (how much do you think you have improved)
My designing journey was a bit of a roller coaster ride and right now the car is stuck on a down slop.
How long have you been designing (including non-TGC designing)?
TGC1 was my first experience designing playable courses. Sketched hole ideas most of my life.
What are your best skills as a designer?
Sculpting, sight lines, minimalism
What are things you need to work on?
Creativity, patience, detail work (clubhouses, surroundings, etc.)
What types of courses do you like to design most?
Realistic, public style courses.
Which theme is your favorite?
Rustic (if I had to pick one).
How much time do you think is required to design a quality course?
Depends on the individual. I like to work fast and don't like spending time on off the course aesthetics. It usually take me more time to settle on a design idea than it does to create the course.
What are some foundational skills you think every designer needs to master?
Sculpting & routing
Generally, what has worked best to help you improve as a designer?
Practice. I would estimate I spent over 1000 hours in the designer before I produced anything of quality. Reading books on course design also helped plenty.
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Post by ErixonStone on Nov 13, 2019 18:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by linkslover on Nov 14, 2019 2:51:28 GMT -5
Indeed, hello again Antonio. Your courses were among my favourites on TGC2. I've hardly played any rounds on TGC2019.
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