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Post by lessthanbread on Sept 25, 2019 11:32:13 GMT -5
A fellow designer brought up this sort of question in the rookie design contest. How do you guys design your courses with the different club levels (Beginner, Pro, Master) in mind?
I always design using Master Clubs off the back tees for my play testing and add shorter tees later for Beginner and Pro.
My opinion is that as a designer I am providing different landing zone options of varying difficulty that should be reachable with every club level provided the golfer chooses the correct tee.
I don't think it is a legitimate criticism if someone using Beginner Clubs playing off the back tees says the course is too hard or they couldn't reach a long par 3/make it to the fairway. Or if someone uses Master Clubs off the front tees and complains about the designer forcing them to layup on every tee shot.
I haven't seen any criticisms like this before but haven't seen it discussed either.
Also, what are your opinions on these kind of criticisms after using Pro Clubs off the back tees? Seems like that is a common set up for golfers.
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Post by linkslover on Sept 25, 2019 11:56:47 GMT -5
I'm with you here Bread. I design courses with at least three sets of tees in mind. Beginners off the front, pro off the middle, master off the back. If a player using beginner clubs criticises from the back tees or master from the front then they should be playing from tees more suited to their clubs.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Sept 25, 2019 12:03:48 GMT -5
I've been play testing mine with pro and masters off the back tees and trying to keep it relatively smooth for both clubsets. On my rookie course i have a longer par 5 that's reachable in 2 with masters but not with pros (which will be an advantage for people using masters and carrying a 2w) but other than that i try to keep yardages where the same type of clubs can be used on approach. Mid, short, long iron, and 2iron/hybrids. Then i have a tee box which makes the course about 250 yards shorter just for a different experience for either clubset. Then i have a shorter tee for beginners clubs so that I'm certain all the greens are reachable in regulation. And lastly a forward tee for simulator people or just to play a round with irons.
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Post by lessthanbread on Sept 25, 2019 12:08:59 GMT -5
I'm with you here Bread. I design courses with at least three sets of tees in mind. Beginners off the front, pro off the middle, master off the back. If a player using beginner clubs criticises from the back tees or master from the front then they should be playing from tees more suited to their clubs. You just reminded me to include wind as well Links. I remember testing your huge downhill par 4 on the Swiss Wall and I mentioned it wasn’t reachable in a high headwind. But my new thought is that’s totally fine because that’s just the nature of golf sometimes where the wind makes holes play much tougher and instead of criticizing the design, the golfer should look to make up for it on holes going with the wind
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Post by jwtexan on Sept 25, 2019 13:25:37 GMT -5
I usually use 3 tee sets, the idea being 1 for each club set.
If the pros want to play from the backs that is fine too.
So I guess I design with Master clubs in mind from the back.
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ffrog
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 247
TGCT Name: Dave Richards
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by ffrog on Sept 25, 2019 15:18:40 GMT -5
I also create 3 tees, roughly aimed at beginner/pro/master clubs having the same landing areas. I also check that everything is reachable with pro clubs off the back tees, as they are probably the tees that would be used on the challenge circuit where there are both pro and master players.
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Post by ErixonStone on Sept 25, 2019 20:21:30 GMT -5
I do not worry about Beginner Clubs at all when designing, although I almost always end up with a tee set that caters to them a little bit. Here's what I mean:
I design my courses from a primary tee set so that Master Clubs can carry hazards in zero wind that Pro Clubs cannot. This forces players into some thinking in three ways:
1. Do I want to sacrifice accuracy for distance and use Master Clubs? I realize most players stick with a particular set, and the TGCT format encourages that. But, in theory, it would be a strategy decision.
2. Do I want to be aggressive and thread the needle? Do I gain an advantage by doing so?
3. Does playing safe make more sense?
After I've built my hole around the primary tee, I start to think about whether I want to add forward tees, or a back tee. This will depend on the type of hole and the type of course. On Dawkins Harbour, I actually added a back tee about 15 yards back on each hole which forced Master Club players to lay up short of most hazards, except in significant tailwinds. On Hitchens Razor, I added only forward tees, kept them relatively close to one another, and significantly change the angle of some tee shots.
You definitely want to pay attention to multiple club sets. Think about how a hole will play with Pro Clubs. Consider the fairway landing area and the type of approach players will have. If you've got a primary landing area that leads to a 215 yard approach, maybe consider adding a forward tee more than 15 yards in front of the primary tee. If the primary landing area leaves a pitch for Masters and a full shot for Pros, then also consider a bigger gap than 15 yards. If the primary landing area is 150 yards out, then you probably don't need the forward tee to be moved that far up.
Unless you're specifically catering to novice players, you probably don't need more than two sets of tees.
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Post by linkslover on Sept 26, 2019 1:44:28 GMT -5
You just reminded me to include wind as well Links. I remember testing your huge downhill par 4 on the Swiss Wall and I mentioned it wasn’t reachable in a high headwind. But my new thought is that’s totally fine because that’s just the nature of golf sometimes where the wind makes holes play much tougher and instead of criticizing the design, the golfer should look to make up for it on holes going with the wind Very good point there Bread and I completely agree. I remember playing Conwy a few years ago in a four man team event. Their 7th and 8th holes are similar length par 4s that run parallel to each other in the opposite direction. That day the 7th was playing downwind and the 8th into a head wind. My average drive goes about 270 yards and one of my partners that day was somebody who played off 1 and hit the ball a bit further than me (about 10 yards). The 7th was a drive and a pitch. We couldn't reach the 8th even by nailing a driver and a 3 wood each. Conwy is a great links track on the North Wales coast which is hosting the Curtis Cup next year.
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