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Post by lessangster on Sept 18, 2019 10:56:19 GMT -5
I’ve just realised I’m a flicker on Xbox, there I’ve said it. I have a very light touch on the thumb-stick and sometimes my thumb slips off the top before I complete my full swing. I don’t shoot stupid low scores every week I’m not on one of the pro tours unless you count CC-C as one. I also play this game as much as anyone played 20 rounds his week already in various societies and have been playing TGC since the first game. How I see the game from an Xbox perspective is it’s more of a tempo simulator as long as you hit perfect/perfect you won’t stray very far from the middle of the fairway even if your slightly outside the blue area, in fact I’ve had swings that show the line shoot of at 45 deg from just past the centre point and just because I’ve hit P/P the ball hasn’t moved that far from centre. My trouble with Master Clubs is usually overshooting my intended landing area with the irons by hitting either P/F or P/S which leave me with a long putt or a chip from the back of the green. I’m not a great putter either. I have never been pulled by the API just lucky I guess. What do I do now go to flickers anonymous. Les I think we all have a bit of a flick, in that at the end of our downswing are thumb will slip off the stick. The issue is if the line reaches the top. Flicking as I understand it is the swing line only travels about 75% of the way to the top and stops. My swing feels like a flick in some regards, but I get a full line 95% of the time, and when I don't, it's because my thumb slips off the stick a bit early (xbox as well) I learned that in TGC2 you only needed to just go past half way on the downswing to get a swing and I think that’s where a lot of these flick swings stem from. In my case it’s not intentional I just swing with a light touch on the thumb stick I don’t use the chess piece grip and have no intention of changing to it, as I’ve said before HB designed the game and it’s up to them to sort it out and that’s just not going to happen in this game no matter how much people bellyache about it and accuse others of ch**ting.
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Post by mrohde4 on Sept 18, 2019 11:10:40 GMT -5
Les I think we all have a bit of a flick, in that at the end of our downswing are thumb will slip off the stick. The issue is if the line reaches the top. Flicking as I understand it is the swing line only travels about 75% of the way to the top and stops. My swing feels like a flick in some regards, but I get a full line 95% of the time, and when I don't, it's because my thumb slips off the stick a bit early (xbox as well) I learned that in TGC2 you only needed to just go past half way on the downswing to get a swing and I think that’s where a lot of these flick swings stem from. In my case it’s not intentional I just swing with a light touch on the thumb stick I don’t use the chess piece grip and have no intention of changing to it, as I’ve said before HB designed the game and it’s up to them to sort it out and that’s just not going to happen in this game no matter how much people bellyache about it and accuse others of ch**ting. I don't consider shortswingers as "cheaters," and many who also despise the practice agree. But this community has, in my opinion, uncovered a legitimate design flaw that renders pure competition impossible. I know it's on HB to fix the design, but that doesn't mean TGCT can't implement our own fix. It'll take work, but it's possible. And before anyone points to the console differences, nobody here can flip a switch to remedy those differences. But with the shortswing, steps can be taken. Video uploads, harsh penalties for repeated API fails caused by shortswinging, etc. The newly implemented penalties are a great start. The goal should be to have "laboratory conditions" for these tournaments, which for video games means simulating a live tournament where players are in the same room and everyone can see the game screen. No mods, no scripts. We've all seen the 2K League or Madden Challenge televised through the years. That should be the goal. In golf (and TGC2019), consistent accuracy is everything. Proximity to hole. Over four rounds, inches add up. Players who shortswing are playing with a handicap. We all see it (when we can). And these are already world class players.
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Post by ezzinomilonga on Sept 18, 2019 11:47:41 GMT -5
All this discussion should be on the HB forum. Not much Can change otherwise. I know it, but as you showed to me weeks ago and as you well know, they simply don't see the problem. And exactly for this i'm also pretty sure that if they will not change something in the swing system for some other reason, in the next game they will not fix this thing at all. And if, with all this, we take in count also their ridiculously childish and disrespectful attitude in these weeks, and the total state of abandon in which the game is cause their absence of interest, you can easily understand why, before to ask again something to them, I could prefer to die. Twice. For all these reasons..i was simply hoping to find a way to solve this issue by ourselves..with what we have.. here..now. Anyway..just to close the discussion, at least for me, about the API and just to answer who still insists that "if for API is ok..it means that MUST BE ok" (wow..what a deep thought..very, very wise. Ah..and very fair, of course! ), is pretty clear for me that (and why) flickers are not axed by API, but is clear also that the admins of this tour COULD create, at some point, also different and stricter rules about fair play policy, way above what the API sees, says, or shows..IF there is the chance to do it properly and fairly. And this because the API is NOT the only possible judge or the unchallengeable god about what is fair or what is not on the tour. Is not API that decides the fair play policy. API is just a tool. A tool. Ok? And a tool have not common sense. We, have it. 👀 Well..ok..we should, have it. So please, stop to repeat every 5/6 posts that we have nothing to complain about. That all this sad coward thing we're forced to see every week is fair. The first time I have read this pearl it sounded almost funny, i have to admit it, but now Is just a pitiful, sad show. Please. So.. if there is actually not a single way to figure out who cheats, well, ok..there's nothing to do..amen. But if API (or something else) could ever help to determine, even in a different way, who plays cheating with no shame or dignity, I can't see the problem if instead to wait that only API punishes the cheaters, WE could do it. We need just some reliable data, the proofs..not the punisher. My question/doubt/idea was simply about this. I was hoping to find a desperate last minute solution. Cause the only sure thing here is that what happened last season is totally a joke. A shame that humiliated the work, the passion and the effort of..a lot of great people. And we're going to see again the same show this season. And it hurts. And I know It could seem i overreact saying this, but for how I see this sport, this game and this community, for me who plays in this coward way is not someone who has the right to play on this tour. Cause he shows always and only disrespect. And without respect..there is nothing. And nothing else matters. All the rest, all the kind words, to share things, experiences, advices, smiles, jokes, "friendship", everything is..just smoke in the eyes. Is just hypocrisy.
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Post by SmilingGoats on Sept 18, 2019 12:08:31 GMT -5
I learned that in TGC2 you only needed to just go past half way on the downswing to get a swing and I think that’s where a lot of these flick swings stem from. I have no proof or evidence of what I'm about to say but this is a possible theory as to the origin of the issue: Back in TGC1, in early days, there were lots of complaints from PS4 users (and some XB1 users maybe???) where they would swing and the club would just reset to start rather than hit the ball. It would take some people 3 or 4 or 6 times swinging to get a shot off. The outcry was loud enough that HB made a change to the swing to prevent the resetting. One theory would be that this change allowed for less than a full stick movement to trigger the full swing motion. It wasn't an issue in TGC 1 or TGC 2 but when TGC 2019 rolled around, they changed the number of data points that influence ball flight and produced an entirely different calculation (accuracy value) for determining where a shot will go. We know that the endpoint of the stick movement is weighted more heavily in that calculation. It seems to me that with a short swing, the endpoint value is consistently assigned a value that is just right of center, for whatever reason. Again, all speculative, but it's a theory.
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Post by GW_Hope on Sept 18, 2019 12:24:05 GMT -5
Spot on, I think HB knows the error but won’t admit to it. Hopefully they can tweak it .
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Post by cseanny on Sept 18, 2019 13:40:27 GMT -5
mrohde4 It wasn't his controller. He played Q-school 2x with the same result. He is definitely a flicker, sometimes requiring multiple swings to actual take a swing. He's not actually taking practice swings, but rather, failing to initiate his forward swing. To reiterate, his swing line was not perfect, and mishits had the ball deviate. So to me, this has nothing to do with individual "flickers", and rather, all about HB and their rebranded coding. If you pass the API, then in my eyes, you're playing the game fairly, and as intended.
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Post by mrohde4 on Sept 18, 2019 14:29:07 GMT -5
mrohde4 It wasn't his controller. He played Q-school 2x with the same result. He is definitely a flicker, sometimes requiring multiple swings to actual take a swing. He's not actually taking practice swings, but rather, failing to initiate his forward swing. To reiterate, his swing line was not perfect, and mishits had the ball deviate. So to me, this has nothing to do with individual "flickers", and rather, all about HB and their rebranded coding. If you pass the API, then in my eyes, you're playing the game fairly, and as intended. Without watching him play, we'll have to take your word. If he's a PS4 flicker, I'd guess that his accuracy deviation on mishits is less than a full-line player. Of course, only a guess. The shortswing advantage has passed the 'eye test' from many top players, including some former flickers who've since changed their swings after getting pulled. Because playing the game fairly in your eyes is based on the admins API threshold settings, what happens if HB no longer shares its data with TGCT? Everything fair game? Are mods, scripts and straight shooters fair in your eyes in society events? Gotta draw a line somewhere.
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 18, 2019 14:50:00 GMT -5
If you pass the API, then in my eyes, you're playing the game fairly, and as intended. that is demonstrably not true.
The "intended" way is blatantly a full swing, with the possibility of the swing being messed up.
It it possible to pass the API while short swinging; the short swing is not a full swing, and it means you can't mess up the swing, you stay straight.
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Post by cseanny on Sept 18, 2019 15:10:05 GMT -5
mrohde4 I've already said in the past, controller only, hands only. Bringing up other, blatant cheats is not comparable. My point to all this is that it's impossible to base fair play on anything other than the math of the API. Besides, imho, it's quite impossible to police fair play any other way.
@ikeet I couldn't disagree with you more. The in game swing is based on the movement of the stick, period. If using nothing but your hands, move the stick with any technique you want. You're creating, your own, arbitrary rules of how a video game stick should be used, one which I 100% do not ascribe to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 15:55:52 GMT -5
I learned that in TGC2 you only needed to just go past half way on the downswing to get a swing and I think that’s where a lot of these flick swings stem from. I have no proof or evidence of what I'm about to say but this is a possible theory as to the origin of the issue: Back in TGC1, in early days, there were lots of complaints from PS4 users (and some XB1 users maybe???) where they would swing and the club would just reset to start rather than hit the ball. It would take some people 3 or 4 or 6 times swinging to get a shot off. The outcry was loud enough that HB made a change to the swing to prevent the resetting. One theory would be that this change allowed for less than a full stick movement to trigger the full swing motion. It wasn't an issue in TGC 1 or TGC 2 but when TGC 2019 rolled around, they changed the number of data points that influence ball flight and produced an entirely different calculation (accuracy value) for determining where a shot will go. We know that the endpoint of the stick movement is weighted more heavily in that calculation. It seems to me that with a short swing, the endpoint value is consistently assigned a value that is just right of center, for whatever reason. Again, all speculative, but it's a theory. I agree 100% with you. I have brought up the "swinggate" problem back in TGC1 as well. I was one that simply couldn't get the swing to "take". Sometimes it took me up to 10 tries. In hindsight it seems like there was a threshold of how far the swing needed to go to execute a proper swing and get desired results. If HB had that then, one would think they could do that somehow again. It was even bad enough for me that I switched to PC version for several months. Same swing on my end got decidedly different results. There is something wonky about the PS4 version in either the way HB gathers their data and/or interprets the data that allows for the short swing that manifests as a just right of center data point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 18:12:56 GMT -5
I have no proof or evidence of what I'm about to say but this is a possible theory as to the origin of the issue: Back in TGC1, in early days, there were lots of complaints from PS4 users (and some XB1 users maybe???) where they would swing and the club would just reset to start rather than hit the ball. It would take some people 3 or 4 or 6 times swinging to get a shot off. The outcry was loud enough that HB made a change to the swing to prevent the resetting. One theory would be that this change allowed for less than a full stick movement to trigger the full swing motion. It wasn't an issue in TGC 1 or TGC 2 but when TGC 2019 rolled around, they changed the number of data points that influence ball flight and produced an entirely different calculation (accuracy value) for determining where a shot will go. We know that the endpoint of the stick movement is weighted more heavily in that calculation. It seems to me that with a short swing, the endpoint value is consistently assigned a value that is just right of center, for whatever reason. Again, all speculative, but it's a theory. I agree 100% with you. I have brought up the "swinggate" problem back in TGC1 as well. I was one that simply couldn't get the swing to "take". Sometimes it took me up to 10 tries. In hindsight it seems like there was a threshold of how far the swing needed to go to execute a proper swing and get desired results. If HB had that then, one would think they could do that somehow again. It was even bad enough for me that I switched to PC version for several months. Same swing on my end got decidedly different results. There is something wonky about the PS4 version in either the way HB gathers their data and/or interprets the data that allows for the short swing that manifests as a just right of center data point. Kind of weird that we had "Swinggate" where it wouldn't swing for some, but after they adjusted that we got the "Creeper flop" where some could pull back as slowly as they wanted to get the desired length backswing on the LW and hold it in place. I know there were some on PS4 who could do that as well as mouse users on PC.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 18:44:45 GMT -5
I learned that in TGC2 you only needed to just go past half way on the downswing to get a swing and I think that’s where a lot of these flick swings stem from. I have no proof or evidence of what I'm about to say but this is a possible theory as to the origin of the issue: Back in TGC1, in early days, there were lots of complaints from PS4 users (and some XB1 users maybe???) where they would swing and the club would just reset to start rather than hit the ball. It would take some people 3 or 4 or 6 times swinging to get a shot off. The outcry was loud enough that HB made a change to the swing to prevent the resetting. One theory would be that this change allowed for less than a full stick movement to trigger the full swing motion. It wasn't an issue in TGC 1 or TGC 2 but when TGC 2019 rolled around, they changed the number of data points that influence ball flight and produced an entirely different calculation (accuracy value) for determining where a shot will go. We know that the endpoint of the stick movement is weighted more heavily in that calculation. It seems to me that with a short swing, the endpoint value is consistently assigned a value that is just right of center, for whatever reason. Again, all speculative, but it's a theory. Just curious Jeff, but do the people who fail the API for flicking all have similar charts in that if you put them on top of each other they would be pretty much the same? Also it is alleged that some top players on PGA flick but have never been pulled, would their charts all line up too or is there the same sort of deviation from high to low but their average is in a different place?
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Post by fadgewacker on Sept 18, 2019 18:54:25 GMT -5
mrohde4 I've already said in the past, controller only, hands only. Bringing up other, blatant cheats is not comparable. My point to all this is that it's impossible to base fair play on anything other than the math of the API. Besides, imho, it's quite impossible to police fair play any other way.
@ikeet I couldn't disagree with you more. The in game swing is based on the movement of the stick, period. If using nothing but your hands, move the stick with any technique you want. You're creating, your own, arbitrary rules of how a video game stick should be used, one which I 100% do not ascribe to.
Christ - you’re brighter than this...
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Post by flyingj75 on Sept 18, 2019 20:15:43 GMT -5
mrohde4 I've already said in the past, controller only, hands only. Bringing up other, blatant cheats is not comparable. My point to all this is that it's impossible to base fair play on anything other than the math of the API. Besides, imho, it's quite impossible to police fair play any other way.
@ikeet I couldn't disagree with you more. The in game swing is based on the movement of the stick, period. If using nothing but your hands, move the stick with any technique you want. You're creating, your own, arbitrary rules of how a video game stick should be used, one which I 100% do not ascribe to.
Christ - you’re brighter than this... Nah
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Post by SmilingGoats on Sept 18, 2019 22:11:34 GMT -5
]Just curious Jeff, but do the people who fail the API for flicking all have similar charts in that if you put them on top of each other they would be pretty much the same? Also it is alleged that some top players on PGA flick but have never been pulled, would their charts all line up too or is there the same sort of deviation from high to low but their average is in a different place? Flick swings almost always appear just to the right of center, usually in the yellow to light green sections of the chart. As for the second question, there are some that likely flick but also have more variance than those that flick exclusively so their charts are decidedly one sided but with more bars across the right side.
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