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Post by lessthanbread on Aug 21, 2019 9:41:08 GMT -5
I'm sure all the seasoned designers know this but many inexperienced designers may not.
At most green speed settings, a ball will slow down and eventually stop on any slope that is colored green on the green grid. Any slope that is yellow or red, the ball will pick up speed in the shown direction.
However, at full green speed (187), a slope could be shown as green on the green grid but the ball will still pick up speed and not stop if it is close to being yellow.
It's tough to explain this in a way that makes sense through text but basically, if you're planning on your greens playing at or near full speed (187), make sure you test all your pins very thoroughly for this because a pin placement may appear to be legal from the green grid (no yellow or red within the 9-box square around the pin) but a ball may not actually be able to stop by the pin if the slope is borderline yellow but shown as green (Well then don't miss the cup Joe!)
A good rule of thumb is to always design with your green speed setting at full speed (187) to account for this up front and then dial the speed back to your liking after you've finished sculpting.
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lapp3r30
Caddy
Posts: 16
TGCT Name: lapp3r30
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Post by lapp3r30 on Aug 31, 2019 14:51:25 GMT -5
I just played a course (very well known) and it had 2 pins where I chipped to about 2ft and ball rolled back to me from a green... Talk about ruining an amazing design. I was -1 through 7 then this hole I take a 10. So painful.. Testing pins is very important.
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Post by lessthanbread on Dec 31, 2019 22:45:03 GMT -5
Wanted to give this a re-bump seeing as this became an issue recently. Pay extra special attention when designing greens for 187 speed.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Dec 31, 2019 22:47:10 GMT -5
as nice as this is course are designed with certain speeds in mind. I know that I do test max speeds but if that makes some pins almost unplayable? That's just the breaks if you max the speed. That's not how it's setup to be played. So while yes...you should test pins...no I don't think you need to test MAX SPEED if that's not how it's designed to be played. That's the player's/tournament director's fault at that point.
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Post by lessthanbread on Dec 31, 2019 22:48:54 GMT -5
as nice as this is course are designed with certain speeds in mind. I know that I do test max speeds but if that makes some pins almost unplayable? That's just the breaks if you max the speed. That's not how it's setup to be played. So while yes...you should test pins...no I don't think you need to test MAX SPEED if that's not how it's designed to be played. That's the player's/tournament director's fault at that point. Right. This is for if you’re designing for 187 speeds
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Post by sandsaver01 on Jan 1, 2020 8:20:27 GMT -5
as nice as this is course are designed with certain speeds in mind. I know that I do test max speeds but if that makes some pins almost unplayable? That's just the breaks if you max the speed. That's not how it's setup to be played. So while yes...you should test pins...no I don't think you need to test MAX SPEED if that's not how it's designed to be played. That's the player's/tournament director's fault at that point. Right. This is for if you’re designing for 187 speeds Joe I think you should always test at 187 (I do) and then set the default lower, say 7 to 7.5. The tournament director came get it to 187 if he wants it there.
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Post by cephyn on Jan 1, 2020 10:51:53 GMT -5
We're seeing this problem in action this week on CC-Am, hole 6, round 2. lots of videos out there - the ball will not hold the slope at the pin, and rolls off the green.
My tip, give pins a click of the soft fuzzy flatten to make sure a chip close can hold the green. I hate heavily sloped pins and generally won't do that, but if you're using them - be safe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 13:41:11 GMT -5
I believe this happens more when the default speed is far, far lower than the one the course is set at for play. The only time I have seen it is on Engineers + 187 speed, and default speed is a mere 132 there.
Then again, one way to avoid this is for rangers to Set Up A Course To Play Somewhat As Intended...and for designers to play-test the pins really carefully. if anything, the designer should know exactly which green speeds, if any, are too fast to work on his/her course.
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Post by sandsaver01 on Jan 1, 2020 15:58:19 GMT -5
I believe this happens more when the default speed is far, far lower than the one the course is set at for play. The only time I have seen it is on Engineers + 187 speed, and default speed is a mere 132 there. Then again, one way to avoid this is for rangers to Set Up A Course To Play Somewhat As Intended...and for designers to play-test the pins really carefully. if anything, the designer should know exactly which green speeds, if any, are too fast to work on his/her course. Ariel, I agree with you. As a ranger however we have no idea what the designer thinks is the ideal green speed, or in some cases the designer might not have a green speed in mind. we rangers usually test courses at default green speed, but sometimes the schedulers ask for a different speed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 16:39:41 GMT -5
I believe this happens more when the default speed is far, far lower than the one the course is set at for play. The only time I have seen it is on Engineers + 187 speed, and default speed is a mere 132 there. Then again, one way to avoid this is for rangers to Set Up A Course To Play Somewhat As Intended...and for designers to play-test the pins really carefully. if anything, the designer should know exactly which green speeds, if any, are too fast to work on his/her course. Ariel, I agree with you. As a ranger however we have no idea what the designer thinks is the ideal green speed, or in some cases the designer might not have a green speed in mind. we rangers usually test courses at default green speed, but sometimes the schedulers ask for a different speed. That is a very good point. It really can go either way, but it would be nice if some of the schedulers were a bit more inclined to ask the designer how the course plays at different green speeds (when possible). Worst case is the designer tests out the course and certain pins on faster green speeds and lets the schedulers know if it's a problem or not, as the vast majority of us would be more than willing to do that to have said courses used on tour.
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Post by 15eicheltower9 on Jan 2, 2020 16:58:12 GMT -5
Schedulers will reach out to designers. I've rangered courses and then rangered them after a re release. But also, for the most part, there's no reason too unless there's a pin that can't be fixed by changing the green conditions or if there's some excessive lag.
Mostly always greens are tested at default. So it's up to the designer to begin with. Sometimes greens are tested at higher speeds to add difficulty for pro tours. Or lower speeds if there were known pin issues.
If your are concerned that a couple questionable pins will keep you off tour, don't be. A lot of courses have a couple and make it on tour. Sometimes it's changing the conditions, other times it's asking a designer to fix a couple.
This week's cc course was tested at default speeds. The couple trouble pins were pointed out and conditions were going to be changed to accommodate that pin set. Unfortunately for that tour's players there was a mixup with speeds. These things happen.
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