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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 13, 2019 12:34:37 GMT -5
What about my point with PS4 players who lack the skill to play with Master clubs voting for forced Pro? There is no evidence that any player A is significantly worse than any player B when they both use Masters, but better than player B when they both use Pro. The gap might be closed a little bit because misses aren't penalized as much, but the better player with Masters is extremely likely to be the better player with Pro clubs. Mike Trout is better at baseball than I am, and it doesn't matter whether we use wood bats or aluminum bats.
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Post by Ashton Fox on Aug 13, 2019 12:47:16 GMT -5
I know this whole system is supposed to replicate the PGA Tour but I think this game doesn't allow for that to happen. So what if they scrapped the names and you were allowed to compete based on the clubs you choose in divisions that have different names? I feel like people get so locked into the names that they can't allow multiple clubsets into the upper tiers.
Do a gold (Masters only), silver (Pro only), and bronze (beginner only) tour with various flights in them (A, B, C, etc.). If you want to switch flights, you have to do the Q school with that clubset.
And honestly, the true elite players (aka the true PGA of this game) are the players in the true sim tour. That is WAY more like actual golf and needs more skill than the wimps who use scout cams and green beads. (I play in the wimp league so don't go get all butthurt)
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csfromks
Weekend Golfer
Posts: 93
TGCT Name: csfromks
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by csfromks on Aug 13, 2019 12:54:03 GMT -5
Tour was already ruined for a lot of xbox users. Additionally, from Doyley: "From PGA: 91 responses - 40% want forced pro clubs, 60% dont" Given that 90% of them are using their favored clubs, that's a pretty stunning result. So a solution is instead to ruin it for a different group of people? That question result seems odd, but either way not forcing is still the majority. What if a large portion of that 60% wouldn’t want to play anymore with Pro. We don’t know that, but looking at the results of this poll and a few of the comments, it’s a definite possibility. The only fair solution it seems is just splitting it up by console really. What about my point with PS4 players who lack the skill to play with Master clubs voting for forced Pro? There’s literally no reason for them not to. Almost 80% of challenge circuit players are playing with their preferred clubset, so in my opinion anyone on PS4 who’s playing with Pro as their preferred clubset, should have their votes thrown out. That’s a lot of people I bet. These are people who would use Pro clubs regardless, why would they not vote Forced Pro? I wondered this too when the survey came out. I'm a PS4 player who jumped straight to masters when I bought the game. Just take a round or two to figure it out and roll, they really weren't that hard to learn. I would hate for any decision to be made because of PS4 pro club users (I know that will not be the case). I am also against the change to pro clubs. I have some weeks where I do great and others where I struggle with consistency over 4 rds. Not all of us PS4 users are firing darts every hole. I would hate to have my game improve only due to using a lower club difficulty although I completely understand the argument that xbox guys have, if it's as bad as they say it is on masters level. (Just buy a PS guys, we aren't 12 yr old's anymore ) Sucks that HB can't figure this out. Are they done doing any sort of tuning/patching for this cycle?
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Post by Giraffe72 on Aug 13, 2019 12:59:40 GMT -5
How about all the XB1 players just buy a PS4. Simple. Just a joke. Don't get your knickers twisted in the front. Meh, your controllers are too small. PS4 users are well known to have little hands...
I think the Admin will find a way forward that has something for everyone, because they always have. And if that's making pro clubs mandatory across the board (which I doubt it will be), well I guess TST will become very popular!
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Post by booze2407 on Aug 13, 2019 13:14:42 GMT -5
What about my point with PS4 players who lack the skill to play with Master clubs voting for forced Pro? There is no evidence that any player A is significantly worse than any player B when they both use Masters, but better than player B when they both use Pro. The gap might be closed a little bit because misses aren't penalized as much, but the better player with Masters is extremely likely to be the better player with Pro clubs. Mike Trout is better at baseball than I am, and it doesn't matter whether we use wood bats or aluminum bats. I don’t think that addresses my point though. I am making a counter argument to the overall total vote of forced Pro or not, which cephyn has referenced a few times where just over half the players voted to force it. What I am saying is that someone on PS4, who uses Pro clubs because Master clubs are too hard for them, is highly likely to have voted to force Pro clubs. In this case, it really has nothing at all to do with the fair play argument. There is literally no reason for PS4 Pro club players to vote against having Pro clubs in the Pro tours. Don’t you think that would seriously mess the vote numbers up in favor of force Pro? In my opinion, those votes I’m referencing carry no value at all as it pertains to this topic.
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Post by booze2407 on Aug 13, 2019 13:22:26 GMT -5
So a solution is instead to ruin it for a different group of people? That question result seems odd, but either way not forcing is still the majority. What if a large portion of that 60% wouldn’t want to play anymore with Pro. We don’t know that, but looking at the results of this poll and a few of the comments, it’s a definite possibility. The only fair solution it seems is just splitting it up by console really. What about my point with PS4 players who lack the skill to play with Master clubs voting for forced Pro? There’s literally no reason for them not to. Almost 80% of challenge circuit players are playing with their preferred clubset, so in my opinion anyone on PS4 who’s playing with Pro as their preferred clubset, should have their votes thrown out. That’s a lot of people I bet. These are people who would use Pro clubs regardless, why would they not vote Forced Pro? I wondered this too when the survey came out. I'm a PS4 player who jumped straight to masters when I bought the game. Just take a round or two to figure it out and roll, they really weren't that hard to learn. I would hate for any decision to be made because of PS4 pro club users (I know that will not be the case). I am also against the change to pro clubs. I have some weeks where I do great and others where I struggle with consistency over 4 rds. Not all of us PS4 users are firing darts every hole. I would hate to have my game improve only due to using a lower club difficulty although I completely understand the argument that xbox guys have, if it's as bad as they say it is on masters level. (Just buy a PS guys, we aren't 12 yr old's anymore ) Sucks that HB can't figure this out. Are they done doing any sort of tuning/patching for this cycle? Yeah I also switched from Pro to Master early on, and have zero desire to ever return. It’s definitely not easy mode and still have my share of tempo battles every day, but that’s what makes the game fun for me! I will never use Pro for that reason.
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 13, 2019 14:05:35 GMT -5
Maybe in the off season the admins can set up a few events in the promo societies and allow pro or master clubs to be used. Let all who want to play use their preferred club and see how the results shake out.
Not saying is going to solve anything, but would give a clue as to how the boards would look if all played. Including those on the Pro tours, using their preferred clubs..
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 13, 2019 14:19:15 GMT -5
What I am saying is that someone on PS4, who uses Pro clubs because Master clubs are too hard for them, is highly likely to have voted to force Pro clubs. I disagree with that assessment. I think most Pro Club players realize that similar scores achieved with Master clubs shows an increase in skill. In this case, it really has nothing at all to do with the fair play argument. There is literally no reason for PS4 Pro club players to vote against having Pro clubs in the Pro tours. I do not believe that Pro Club players will compete better if everyone was forced to use Pro Clubs. The only players using Pro Clubs on tour play in a division where the leaderboards are segregated. These players are literally incentivized to not want to force Pro Clubs, if all they cared about was their own standing. Don’t you think that would seriously mess the vote numbers up in favor of force Pro? In my opinion, those votes I’m referencing carry no value at all as it pertains to this topic.[/quote]Players that play with Pro Clubs make up a significant portion of the community. Their input counts as much as yours and mine. Again, players who would accept forced-Pro-clubs are putting higher value on fairness across platforms than they are on playing their preferred set. I understand that there is a subset of players who get to have their cake and eat it too. Given the current game state, there isn't an ideal solution. No matter which way you slice it, we could pick, at best, two of three values: fairness, club-choice, cross-platform. No combination of two of those three is wrong. Ideally we could have all three, but TGC2019 doesn't make that possible.
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Post by booze2407 on Aug 13, 2019 14:39:56 GMT -5
What I am saying is that someone on PS4, who uses Pro clubs because Master clubs are too hard for them, is highly likely to have voted to force Pro clubs. I disagree with that assessment. I think most Pro Club players realize that similar scores achieved with Master clubs shows an increase in skill. In this case, it really has nothing at all to do with the fair play argument. There is literally no reason for PS4 Pro club players to vote against having Pro clubs in the Pro tours. I do not believe that Pro Club players will compete better if everyone was forced to use Pro Clubs. The only players using Pro Clubs on tour play in a division where the leaderboards are segregated. These players are literally incentivized to not want to force Pro Clubs, if all they cared about was their own standing. Don’t you think that would seriously mess the vote numbers up in favor of force Pro? In my opinion, those votes I’m referencing carry no value at all as it pertains to this topic. I still don’t feel like you’re following what I am saying exactly...(or more likely are but just dismissing the impact it would have on the vote) * Are there a lot of players on PS4 who use pro clubs because they find Master to be too difficult? - YES, that’s an absolute 100% fact. Many exist. *Would these people vote NO to their PREFERRED clubset becoming the only clubset in the Pro tours? Of course not. Again, why would they? The question to them is essentially reading “Do you want a chance to make the Pro tours or not?” There is absolutely no reason for them to vote no. Even if it’s like you said and they know the Master club users with similar scores are likely better than they are, it still makes no sense whatsoever for them vote against forced Pro. I am simply speaking out against the narrative that all the Yes votes are doing so “in the interest of fairness”. I don’t see how I am wrong here...at all. I did not say all Pro club users votes shouldn’t count, I am saying PS4 players who use Pro clubs should have no voice on this question. They have the option to use Master on the best system for it, and declined. Sorry, but those votes clearly don’t matter as much as PS4 players who use Master clubs and are effected by it. I wish those votes could be taken out so we could get a more accurate overall vote is all. Edit - I made a complete mess of the quotes lol.
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Post by xEB50x on Aug 13, 2019 14:50:05 GMT -5
I know a lot of xbox players on the pro tours using master's, and not one of us wants to play with pro clubs. Honestly, I don't think any of us want any changes in the Pro tours. I'd rather keep the pro tours just as they are. I would be completely against allowing Pro clubs on the pro tours. All the posts keep referring to xbox players as the motivator to make a change. We've accepted how things are and are fine with it, so you can refrain from using the xbox pro tour players as examples. (disclaimer) I know I don't speak for all xbox players on the pro tours, but I have a pretty big sample size of support in my statement.
People that want pro clubs on the pro tours for your own personal reasons, can stop hiding behind the "it's unfair for xbox" war cry. Your not speaking for a lot of us. I don't want to see rash decisions being made over inflated claims. Unballanced yes, but xbox leading the charge for change, no.
Note: I'm only speaking of the pro tours, not CC tours as they may have a completely different opinion and view on the matter.
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Post by cephyn on Aug 13, 2019 14:55:05 GMT -5
The way to the most accurate vote possible isn't to cherry pick the votes you think "matter" - all users of this site should have a say in a poll of site users.
Ultimately its up to the foundrers/admins to do what they see fit. As Patrick said, there's no perfect solution here. Something will be sacrificed - cross platform play, masters clubs, or fair and level competition. To date, on TGC19, we've sacrificed fair and level competition.
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Post by cephyn on Aug 13, 2019 14:57:49 GMT -5
I know a lot of xbox players on the pro tours using master's, and not one of us wants to play with pro clubs. Honestly, I don't think any of us want any changes in the Pro tours. I'd rather keep the pro tours just as they are. I would be completely against allowing Pro clubs on the pro tours. All the posts keep referring to xbox players as the motivator to make a change. We've accepted how things are and are fine with it, so you can refrain from using the xbox pro tour players as examples. (disclaimer) I know I don't speak for all xbox players on the pro tours, but I have a pretty big sample size of support in my statement. People that want pro clubs on the pro tours for your own personal reasons, can stop hiding behind the "it's unfair for xbox" war cry. Your not speaking for a lot of us. I don't want to see rash decisions being made over inflated claims. Unballanced yes, but xbox leading the charge for change, no. You speak for a big sample size maybe - but a self-selected sample size of xbox players who have stuck around for a year in a tour stacked against them. It's a shame we can't poll xbox users who have given up, ask them if they'd come back. As has been stated a few times though, since there's not overwhelming support for the idea, its highly unlikely to be implemented.
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Post by titaneddie on Aug 13, 2019 15:03:49 GMT -5
Im on xbox and gave up. Mainly cause i was hoping to grind up to pga at one point. Got over it. Tried some pro clubs. Didn't really like it. So i wouldn't want to force that play on the whole community. I'll play a tourney every now and then with masters and wherever i end up is fine now. Is what it is.
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 13, 2019 15:09:02 GMT -5
Are there a lot of players on PS4 who use pro clubs because they find Master to be too difficult? - YES, that’s an absolute 100% fact. Many exist. *Would these people vote NO to their PREFERRED clubset becoming the only clubset in the Pro tours? Of course not. Again, why would they? The question to them is essentially reading “Do you want a chance to make the Pro tours or not?” There is absolutely no reason for them to vote no. Players can reach the Pro Tours using Pro Clubs. They just cannot continue to use them. History shows that players who are promoted from CC-A to Web.com while using Pro Clubs do just fine on Web.com using Masters. The incentive to vote "No" is to ensure that there is some segment of players who are struggling with Master clubs. It is not likely that, in the aggregate, players who use Pro Clubs today would fare better in the standings if everyone had to use Pro Clubs. Furthermore, it's completely reasonable that many of the PS4 Pro Club users would want to force Pro Clubs on everyone because they value cross-platform play. If the question was posed: should we force Pro, or force Master on all Tours, THEN, I would agree with you, that players simply struggling would want to force Pro Clubs and close the skill gap a little bit.
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Post by zzfr33b1rdzz on Aug 13, 2019 15:44:09 GMT -5
Honestly I don't see the point to all this. The CC ranks have promo marks going to the top 10 pro and top 10 master users. So is like you're competing against clubset anyway..
Ok, XB is harder with master clubs, so?
If you want to play with pros, do it. If you want to play with master. do it.
The only restriction would be the Pro tours stay as master the way it should be.
No matter what happens, there will be complaining and disagreement either way. Dammed if we do, Dammed if we don't.
Then a new game comes out... rinse and repeat...
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