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Post by tottenhamordie on Jun 28, 2019 4:17:15 GMT -5
Hello fellow designers, began working on my 3rd course today and decided I want to do some classic template holes this time. My first course was a complete noobfest and my second was better, but I was still stuck in the "tee to green" mentality, with little to no thought about strategy, difficulty, or design. So, as I said, this time i want to do it right, take my time, and incorporate things i have learned from studying golf course architecture. That being said, I can only read so many articles, biographies, interviews, and watch so many YouTube videos as well. The two main templates I have questions about are The Redan, and The Biarritz.
So...
1. What are the main strategies I'm looking for in both of these? 2. Visualizing them in the designer, and how i might go about nailing these as a noob 3. Being the 2 most liked par 3 templates, how much pressure am I under to get it perfect? 4. Is there a design theme, or principle that these templates won't work with(i.e desert vs highlands vs autumn) (and links vs cc) 5. Are these supposed to be easier or harder holes to play? In my reading, the redan sounded kind of easier to play, as your landing spot is pronounced and funnels the ball to the green. But what's really easy in golf right lol 6. It seems, at least with the redan, that bunkering is almost as important as the sloping itself. Is this true? How important is it on a Biarritz as well? 7. What is the point of a Biarritz? This seems to be the hardest hole to get one concise opinion on. I know it's meant for long irons so a 200+ yard shot is ideal. But I don't understand the 50 yard green or the rolling pin dip in between the plateaues. 8. (Almost done I swear) will these be out of place if both are used on the same course? Is there a limit to how many template holes one should use? I understand at the end of the day it designers choice, and if i want 5 redans, I could if i wanted to. I'm just trying to make this as realistic as possible. 9. Finally, being templates, are these designs set in stone? Or can they be altered a bit and still be called a redan or biarritz? For example, a redan with no front bunker, but maybe water instead? Or a Biarritz with no bunker or slope, leaving a flat putt if you make the green?
Thanks to anyone who reads that and takes time to reply. Any opinion, suggestion, tip, trick, or reference is much appreciated. I plan to take my time with this one and make something I can be proud of, and these are the only real roadblocks as I understand the other templates and design pretty well now.
Thank you, Tot
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Post by linkslover on Jun 28, 2019 6:12:17 GMT -5
I'm not going to answer your 9 questions... just saying that I design without any templates in mind at all. If one is one, then so be it.
Somebody commented when I released Northwood Golf Club that the 5th was a reverse Biarritz. I didn't have a bloody clue what he was on about until I looked it up.
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Post by gamesdecent on Jun 28, 2019 6:50:20 GMT -5
1. What are the main strategies I'm looking for in both of these? Redan kicker slope is used to get to pins behind the front bunker. Biarritz is all about distance control and making sure you hit onto the correct tier.2. Visualizing them in the designer, and how i might go about nailing these as a noob Look at pictures of real life examples.3. Being the 2 most liked par 3 templates, how much pressure am I under to get it perfect? Not very much.4. Is there a design theme, or principle that these templates won't work with(i.e desert vs highlands vs autumn) (and links vs cc) Nope.5. Are these supposed to be easier or harder holes to play? In my reading, the redan sounded kind of easier to play, as your landing spot is pronounced and funnels the ball to the green. But what's really easy in golf right lol In real life these are both hard holes, the Biarritz especially. Both require accuracy with long irons or woods and any miss is punished.6. It seems, at least with the redan, that bunkering is almost as important as the sloping itself. Is this true? How important is it on a Biarritz as well? Traditionally yes, but I’m sure there are plenty of examples with hazards other than bunkers.7. What is the point of a Biarritz? This seems to be the hardest hole to get one concise opinion on. I know it's meant for long irons so a 200+ yard shot is ideal. But I don't understand the 50 yard green or the rolling pin dip in between the plateaues. The swale in the middle of the green is what punishes you for hitting on the wrong tier. Sometimes the entire front shelf and swale are fairway and only the back shelf is green. Sometimes a Biarritz green is angled rather than straight on and used on a par 4 instead of a par 3.8. (Almost done I swear) will these be out of place if both are used on the same course? Is there a limit to how many template holes one should use? I understand at the end of the day it designers choice, and if i want 5 redans, I could if i wanted to. I'm just trying to make this as realistic as possible. No, most courses that use templates feature both. Ideally, only one of each is used to avoid repetition, but it’s your course.9. Finally, being templates, are these designs set in stone? Or can they be altered a bit and still be called a redan or biarritz? For example, a redan with no front bunker, but maybe water instead? Or a Biarritz with no bunker or slope, leaving a flat putt if you make the green? Look into Sweetens Cove or Old MacDonald and how those architects took the template concepts but altered them to fit their own style of construction and course layout.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Jun 28, 2019 9:51:13 GMT -5
I'm not going to answer your 9 questions... just saying that I design without any templates in mind at all. If one is one, then so be it. Somebody commented when I released Northwood Golf Club that the 5th was a reverse Biarritz. I didn't have a bloody clue what he was on about until I looked it up. Uh, thanks any way hahaha
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Post by tottenhamordie on Jun 28, 2019 9:56:41 GMT -5
1. What are the main strategies I'm looking for in both of these? Redan kicker slope is used to get to pins behind the front bunker. Biarritz is all about distance control and making sure you hit onto the correct tier.2. Visualizing them in the designer, and how i might go about nailing these as a noob Look at pictures of real life examples.3. Being the 2 most liked par 3 templates, how much pressure am I under to get it perfect? Not very much.4. Is there a design theme, or principle that these templates won't work with(i.e desert vs highlands vs autumn) (and links vs cc) Nope.5. Are these supposed to be easier or harder holes to play? In my reading, the redan sounded kind of easier to play, as your landing spot is pronounced and funnels the ball to the green. But what's really easy in golf right lol In real life these are both hard holes, the Biarritz especially. Both require accuracy with long irons or woods and any miss is punished.6. It seems, at least with the redan, that bunkering is almost as important as the sloping itself. Is this true? How important is it on a Biarritz as well? Traditionally yes, but I’m sure there are plenty of examples with hazards other than bunkers.7. What is the point of a Biarritz? This seems to be the hardest hole to get one concise opinion on. I know it's meant for long irons so a 200+ yard shot is ideal. But I don't understand the 50 yard green or the rolling pin dip in between the plateaues. The swale in the middle of the green is what punishes you for hitting on the wrong tier. Sometimes the entire front shelf and swale are fairway and only the back shelf is green. Sometimes a Biarritz green is angled rather than straight on and used on a par 4 instead of a par 3.8. (Almost done I swear) will these be out of place if both are used on the same course? Is there a limit to how many template holes one should use? I understand at the end of the day it designers choice, and if i want 5 redans, I could if i wanted to. I'm just trying to make this as realistic as possible. No, most courses that use templates feature both. Ideally, only one of each is used to avoid repetition, but it’s your course.9. Finally, being templates, are these designs set in stone? Or can they be altered a bit and still be called a redan or biarritz? For example, a redan with no front bunker, but maybe water instead? Or a Biarritz with no bunker or slope, leaving a flat putt if you make the green? Look into Sweetens Cove or Old MacDonald and how those architects took the template concepts but altered them to fit their own style of construction and course layout.Thanks man, it's hard to find exact answers for some of this stuff. I can find pictures and article clippings, but most dont tell me exactly what I'm looking for. This definitely helps though.
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Post by ddixjr509 on Jun 28, 2019 13:01:57 GMT -5
The Biarritz is so summer of 2018. Last summer's design contest, it seemed almost every course had a redan and a Biarritz... then they went into hibernation for a year.
JoegolferG only designs template courses- search his courses for examples. BSmooth had an excellent template course with The Patriot. Olmsted wasn't a template course, but I threw in a biarritz (#7), and a reverse redan (#13)... if you wanted to see examples- play them a few times to understand the nuances.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Jun 28, 2019 13:14:35 GMT -5
The Biarritz is so summer of 2018. Last summer's design contest, it seemed almost every course had a redan and a Biarritz... then they went into hibernation for a year. JoegolferG only designs template courses- search his courses for examples. BSmooth had an excellent template course with The Patriot. Olmsted wasn't a template course, but I threw in a biarritz (#7), and a reverse redan (#13)... if you wanted to see examples- play them a few times to understand the nuances. Thank you for the references, I will check all of them out today.
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Post by joegolferg on Jun 29, 2019 4:31:16 GMT -5
The Biarritz is so summer of 2018. Last summer's design contest, it seemed almost every course had a redan and a Biarritz... then they went into hibernation for a year. JoegolferG only designs template courses- search his courses for examples. BSmooth had an excellent template course with The Patriot. Olmsted wasn't a template course, but I threw in a biarritz (#7), and a reverse redan (#13)... if you wanted to see examples- play them a few times to understand the nuances. Thank you for the references, I will check all of them out today. Hello, Ordie. Good to see some enthusiasm for templates coming from someone new. If you'd like to play some of my courses that are purist Raynor template courses for in game examples, here is a list of them... Greenbrier CC Greenbrier CC East Cincinnati Club NJ National Southern Straits Briarcliff Hollow I'd say Greenbrier CC East and Cincinnati Club have the best collection of par three's from the bunch. These courses are in a range of themes such as... Countryside, Rustic, Autumn and Tropical. I'll get back to you soon about the questions on the Redan and Biarritz although Petty has pretty much covered it all. One question - are you building a template course in its purest form (mimicking a real life architect, Macdonald/Raynor/Banks or are you putting your own spin on it?
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Post by joegolferg on Jun 29, 2019 5:09:19 GMT -5
Thank you for the references, I will check all of them out today. Hello, Ordie. Good to see some enthusiasm for templates coming from someone new. If you'd like to play some of my courses that are purist Raynor template courses for in game examples, here is a list of them... Greenbrier CC Greenbrier CC East Cincinnati Club NJ National Southern Straits Briarcliff Hollow I'd say Greenbrier CC East and Cincinnati Club have the best collection of par three's from the bunch. These courses are in a range of themes such as... Countryside, Rustic, Autumn and Tropical. I'll get back to you soon about the questions on the Redan and Biarritz although Petty has pretty much covered it all. One question - are you building a template course in its purest form (mimicking a real life architect, Macdonald/Raynor/Banks or are you putting your own spin on it? I'll leave you with some flyovers...
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Post by b101 on Jun 29, 2019 13:33:19 GMT -5
I'd also add that you definitely want to play Elysian Downs as a template course that may look a bit more natural to your eye. I don't think there's anything wrong with templates or the idea of them, but I mainly use them as a starting point for 'this is how you do strategy' - i.e. how to think about angles, shot selection, green shapes and slopes etc. I don't use them per se, but I'm sure that when my CC course rolls around that joegolferg will be able to tell me that lots of my holes resemble templates, as ultimately, you can only be so creative. Honestly, just play around with ideas and see what you like. That's the best way.
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Post by tottenhamordie on Jun 30, 2019 11:53:10 GMT -5
Thank you for the references, I will check all of them out today. Hello, Ordie. Good to see some enthusiasm for templates coming from someone new. If you'd like to play some of my courses that are purist Raynor template courses for in game examples, here is a list of them... Greenbrier CC Greenbrier CC East Cincinnati Club NJ National Southern Straits Briarcliff Hollow I'd say Greenbrier CC East and Cincinnati Club have the best collection of par three's from the bunch. These courses are in a range of themes such as... Countryside, Rustic, Autumn and Tropical. I'll get back to you soon about the questions on the Redan and Biarritz although Petty has pretty much covered it all. One question - are you building a template course in its purest form (mimicking a real life architect, Macdonald/Raynor/Banks or are you putting your own spin on it? Thanks for the reply, I am not going for a purest template course. Just plan to use each of these as a par 3 on this course to get a feel for strategy and design. Made my 2nd hole a redan so i can start understanding it as I work on the rest of the course. I'm one of those types that can visualize what I want to create, but my hands just won't do what I want hahaha. So I guess we will see how these turn out.
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