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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 9:21:36 GMT -5
So I was watching VctryLnSprts do a design stream several weeks ago and I saw him do something that I had never even considered and it changed how I design my holes completely and now I'm curious how others do it. After coming up with the general direction of the hole, Eric placed his hazards before he did anything else and then he routed his playing surfaces around them and built the hole around those hazards. I know this isn't new to you veterans out there but this was new for a guy with only 3 courses published. On my Dream Team course and CC course now I'm doing about a 50/50 split between routing the playing surfaces first and then placing hazards and routing hazards first and then putting the playing surfaces around them. So, which do approach do you take to surface and hazard routing and why? I'm specifically looking for how this affects the strategy and look of the hole.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
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Post by reebdoog on May 15, 2019 9:32:09 GMT -5
I sculpt the land a little bit with playing surface and hazards in mind...but I almost ALWAYS place hazards first for the fairway. However...I tend to do the oposite with regard to greens. I put down a BASIC green shape...then hazards...then tweak the green to make sure the spacing is right.
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Post by cephyn on May 15, 2019 9:53:03 GMT -5
I started doing this after Driftless. For my first 2 courses I basically put down fairways first and then worked the bunkers into it. What happened, and you can really see it on Driftless on about 90% of the holes, is that I got into a habit of making just long, thin, straight fairways with very little character to them. Mostly flat. The hazards are all predictably off to the sides, and there's nothing really interesting about the drives.
Except hole 2 on Driftless. There, I placed the hazards first, where I thought they belonged, and then had to work the fairway into the terrain. I ended up thinking the 2nd was one of, if not the, best hole on the course. It's certainly one of the most interesting. And I wanted more of that.
So when I got to Roadrunner, I started thinking more about bunkers/hazards first and fairways second, and I think it improved the course. I still have a few too many straight fairways on RRM, but the holes and fairways have more character.
Finally on Wisp - every hole started with bunkering first. I then could develop the strategy of the fairway routing around those bunkers, offering multiple paths, it really opened up the course. I don't think I can go back to fairway first - it just makes for boring holes (when I do that).
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 10:04:35 GMT -5
I started doing this after Driftless. For my first 2 courses I basically put down fairways first and then worked the bunkers into it. What happened, and you can really see it on Driftless on about 90% of the holes, is that I got into a habit of making just long, thin, straight fairways with very little character to them. Mostly flat. The hazards are all predictably off to the sides, and there's nothing really interesting about the drives. Except hole 2 on Driftless. There, I placed the hazards first, where I thought they belonged, and then had to work the fairway into the terrain. I ended up thinking the 2nd was one of, if not the, best hole on the course. It's certainly one of the most interesting. And I wanted more of that. So when I got to Roadrunner, I started thinking more about bunkers/hazards first and fairways second, and I think it improved the course. I still have a few too many straight fairways on RRM, but the holes and fairways have more character. Finally on Wisp - every hole started with bunkering first. I then could develop the strategy of the fairway routing around those bunkers, offering multiple paths, it really opened up the course. I don't think I can go back to fairway first - it just makes for boring holes (when I do that). I 100% agree with this! After I started considering hazards first and then routing around them I feel like I have more character and interesting shots in my course. Like Reeb stated though, I tend to do greens the opposite because I found I had greens that were not playable or realistic if i shaped them around the hazards. Green complexes are my biggest focus at the moment. I'm trying to really improve my green complexes on both of the courses I'm building.
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Post by gamesdecent on May 15, 2019 10:22:42 GMT -5
I started doing bunkers first on Cypress Dunes and it's pretty much changed my whole design style. I still always start with a general routing with the measuring tool after I've done macro sculpting, and try to "find" 18 good holes. Then I look at areas where multiple holes are gathering and look at why/what is interesting about the feature or land they're gathering around and turn it into a focal point for those holes. I try to do this a couple places in the routing.
On individual holes, I always start with the green, then find a couple places where the bunkers would naturally fit into the land I've sculpted, and try to plan the strategy of the hole from there, letting the angles near to the hazards determine which ways the green slopes and runs off.
But yes, this method makes for MUCH more interesting courses to play.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 10:24:44 GMT -5
I started doing bunkers first on Cypress Dunes and it's pretty much changed my whole design style. I still always start with a general routing with the measuring tool after I've done macro sculpting, and try to "find" 18 good holes. Then I look at areas where multiple holes are gathering and look at why/what is interesting about the feature or land they're gathering around and turn it into a focal point for those holes. I try to do this a couple places in the routing. On individual holes, I always start with the green, then find a couple places where the bunkers would naturally fit into the land I've sculpted, and try to plan the strategy of the hole from there, letting the angles near to the hazards determine which ways the green slopes and runs off. But yes, this method makes for MUCH more interesting courses to play. Between you, reeb and Eric this confirms my theory that hazard routing is the way to go! I need to get more creative with my hazards now!
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Post by CiB0RG on May 15, 2019 11:09:39 GMT -5
Here's my order of making holes: (I've always done it the same way)
1) Create Hole Waypoints (usually on a flat piece of land) 2) Macro-sculpt land to desired elevation change/topography 3) Lay down green and tee box surfaces 4) Put in hazards - bunkers, water, terrain hazards, waste areas, etc. 5) create fairway surfaces (around hazards) 6) micro-sculpt fairways, bunkers & surrounding areas 7) sculpt green & add pin positions 8) begin planting
To me... placing my hazards before my fairways has always seemed like the more natural way to do it. I've never really questioned why before. Cool topic here!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 11:12:58 GMT -5
Here's my order of making holes: (I've always done it the same way) 1) Create Hole Waypoints (usually on a flat piece of land) 2) Macro-sculpt land to desired elevation change/topography 3) Lay down green and tee box surfaces 4) Put in hazards - bunkers, water, terrain hazards, waste areas, etc. 5) create fairway surfaces (around hazards) 6) micro-sculpt fairways, bunkers & surrounding areas 7) sculpt green & add pin positions 8) begin planting To me... placing my hazards before my fairways has always seemed like the more natural way to do it. I've never really questioned why before. Cool topic here! And it only took me 3 courses to figure that out! LOL. No I think as a new designer I got sucked into the "basics" of a golf course which is the greens and fairways right? So I started with those and routed/surfaced them but then felt like I was forcing the hazards into the course. The hazard first approach feels more natural as if you showed up on a plot and worked a golf course into it like you would do in real life. Seems simple im sure but for newbies like me I'd never thought of it that way until I saw VctryLnSprts do it.
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Post by rjwils30 on May 15, 2019 18:31:43 GMT -5
Fairways always feel more natural when routed around something whether a hazard or a landform. By doing the hazards or sculpting first your likely to arrive at something unexpected and natural. Doing this also blurs the boundaries of the playing surfaces making them look more integrated into the fabric of the course and less painted and arbitrary.
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Post by linkslover on May 16, 2019 6:36:55 GMT -5
Mmmm, I use this method currently...
Measure out 18 holes. Lay down all the holes. Design the green. Add pin positions. Design the fairway. Create the tee(s). Add bunkers and any penalty areas. Plant. Play test (sometimes I do some ad hoc play testing while designing if I want to try something out). Repeat for the other 17 holes. Plant the surrounds.
Having read the above, I might start creating my bunkers before the fairway, it seems a good idea. It's a bit late for The Swiss Wall though, I've nearly finished the 16th.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 8:27:24 GMT -5
I started doing bunkers first on Cypress Dunes and it's pretty much changed my whole design style. I still always start with a general routing with the measuring tool after I've done macro sculpting, and try to "find" 18 good holes. Then I look at areas where multiple holes are gathering and look at why/what is interesting about the feature or land they're gathering around and turn it into a focal point for those holes. I try to do this a couple places in the routing. On individual holes, I always start with the green, then find a couple places where the bunkers would naturally fit into the land I've sculpted, and try to plan the strategy of the hole from there, letting the angles near to the hazards determine which ways the green slopes and runs off. But yes, this method makes for MUCH more interesting courses to play. ^^^^ This. So I went back and looked at ryanmcconnell's drawing he did for his current WIP and the same thing for TannerBronson's drawing and then I re-read your comment Petty and realized that I need to think more macro on my next design. I also do macro sculpting and then rough routing but what I am missing is that part I underlined. I need to work on some major features to have them included on multiple holes. I think my courses in the past have been too focused on one hole at a time and I'm not tying in the overall plot together. It goes hand in hand with my original post, design the plot and hazards and then work the course into that rather than designing a golf course and then working the plot into the course. Thank you all, you're feedback and streams have been extremely enlightening!
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Post by cephyn on May 16, 2019 9:07:19 GMT -5
Focal points are definitely, definitely next level designing. Great thing to focus on. I need to do that too.
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Post by TannerBronson on May 16, 2019 19:09:37 GMT -5
I started doing bunkers first on Cypress Dunes and it's pretty much changed my whole design style. I still always start with a general routing with the measuring tool after I've done macro sculpting, and try to "find" 18 good holes. Then I look at areas where multiple holes are gathering and look at why/what is interesting about the feature or land they're gathering around and turn it into a focal point for those holes. I try to do this a couple places in the routing. On individual holes, I always start with the green, then find a couple places where the bunkers would naturally fit into the land I've sculpted, and try to plan the strategy of the hole from there, letting the angles near to the hazards determine which ways the green slopes and runs off. But yes, this method makes for MUCH more interesting courses to play. ^^^^ This. So I went back and looked at ryanmcconnell's drawing he did for his current WIP and the same thing for TannerBronson's drawing and then I re-read your comment Petty and realized that I need to think more macro on my next design. I also do macro sculpting and then rough routing but what I am missing is that part I underlined. I need to work on some major features to have them included on multiple holes. I think my courses in the past have been too focused on one hole at a time and I'm not tying in the overall plot together. It goes hand in hand with my original post, design the plot and hazards and then work the course into that rather than designing a golf course and then working the plot into the course. Thank you all, you're feedback and streams have been extremely enlightening! That means a lot that someone looked at my drawings like that. My steps really mesh together, there isn’t really a checklist for how I design. But I ALWAYS. Draw the routing of the course with a ruler, pencil and graph paper. They I draw each individual hole out, and lastly I draw the green. Then I copy each drawing twice. That’s including the Individual holes and their greens. With one set of these copies I make the macro sculpting of the course over the holes. With the second copies, I do the micro sculpting and the nitty gritty details about the greens. Then when I get into the actual designer I sculpt the overall macro sculpting I planned and then I place all my points and waypoints for the holes. My next step is that I would texture the first hole (I always start with the green texturing), after that I would do bunkers. Tee boxes come after that and then I micro sculpt the fairways. Finally after I have the fairway perfected. I sculpt the green to play the way I sketched it and how it plays with the in game fairway. Again that means a lot to get referenced like that at my age. Good luck! Cheers!
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