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Post by CuseHokie on Apr 23, 2019 11:08:25 GMT -5
While I think Hippy's delivery left some room for improvement, I do believe his heart is in the right place as far as having a fair tour. To me, 2019 has been a downgrade as far as my TGCTours experience goes. My motivation had been dwindling but lately it's reached a cliff. How can we have an equitable tour when there are several (suddenly) top players earning a top10 each week, or an API flag? Honestly, is this the best we can do? I get that this is mostly volunteers, but still, how many thousands of dollars have been "donated" to help fund some of this in hopes of having a positive experience? Sure, there are some that'll call the weekly PGA thread a circus. In its defense, if you're in a middle flight tour (Euro, Web, CCA, etc) - you're not having to endure these shenanigans specifically with the straight shooting deceivers because ultimately they don't last but a few weeks on your tour before they've been "promoted". Certainly, some of this burden rests on HB, and I have little confidence they'll do much to address some of the swing "deficiencies" that are being exploited - but certainly a penalty for repeat offenders should be discussed? One idea I've discussed is docking Fedex points... another would be missing X weeks. First time offender? You're pulled for that week. Second time offender? You're pulled that week and the next. Third? Rinse and repeat. Maybe after 4 or 5 pulls, people will adapt and we can have some semblance of government. Your heart is never in the right place if you direct that much bile at the people that are running & help to run this thing out of the goodness of their hearts. Donations are just that - a little something as a symbol of our appreciation for the work they do - I don't think we should have any expectations for that. Expectations of a product would only come if they charge us for it - ie mandatory payment. Agree one or two of his points may have been valid, but when you layer profanities and personal attacks on top of them... no surprise when they get very lost. Totally agree on longer term bans for repeat offenders tho! Feels like this is a big gap in the current policy, increasingly being exploited. To be clear, the majority of his post is what you're calling out. I'm not endorsing that. I am focusing on a gap that I believe we (the community) could all agree needs some improvement. However, anytime we propose an improvement, we seem to get push back that there's not enough time, cycles, money, volunteer-only, etc. I would hope the legitimacy of the scores and punishment for abuse / repeat offenders would be a higher priority than simply highlighting my score on the advance stats sheet (which is cool, don't get me wrong). I sense Hippy is just overly frustrated (again not an excuse for his comments) but taking into account his 6, yes _six_, second place finishes in half a season - I can empathize with trying to be the best you can be and being handcuffed as others are seemingly enabled without recourse. Where do we go from here?
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Post by GW_Hope on Apr 23, 2019 11:14:06 GMT -5
Your heart is never in the right place if you direct that much bile at the people that are running & help to run this thing out of the goodness of their hearts. Donations are just that - a little something as a symbol of our appreciation for the work they do - I don't think we should have any expectations for that. Expectations of a product would only come if they charge us for it - ie mandatory payment. Agree one or two of his points may have been valid, but when you layer profanities and personal attacks on top of them... no surprise when they get very lost. Totally agree on longer term bans for repeat offenders tho! Feels like this is a big gap in the current policy, increasingly being exploited. To be clear, the majority of his post is what you're calling out. I'm not endorsing that. I am focusing on a gap that I believe we (the community) could all agree needs some improvement. However, anytime we propose an improvement, we seem to get push back that there's not enough time, cycles, money, volunteer-only, etc. I would hope the legitimacy of the scores and punishment for abuse / repeat offenders would be a higher priority than simply highlighting my score on the advance stats sheet (which is cool, don't get me wrong). I sense Hippy is just overly frustrated (again not an excuse for his comments) but taking into account his 6, yes _six_, second place finishes in half a season - I can empathize with trying to be the best you can be and being handcuffed as others are seemingly enabled without recourse. Where do we go from here? When I look at my scores I think what went wrong? Am I really that bad? Was in top 20 of WT last season. Then I look around me and I see many of my peers from last season all around me and many below. Then I look at the top of the board I wonder who these people are? Where did they come from? Makes a guy wonder is all. Sour grapes? Maybe.
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Post by paulus on Apr 23, 2019 11:16:54 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 11:51:21 GMT -5
Your heart is never in the right place if you direct that much bile at the people that are running & help to run this thing out of the goodness of their hearts. Donations are just that - a little something as a symbol of our appreciation for the work they do - I don't think we should have any expectations for that. Expectations of a product would only come if they charge us for it - ie mandatory payment. Agree one or two of his points may have been valid, but when you layer profanities and personal attacks on top of them... no surprise when they get very lost. Totally agree on longer term bans for repeat offenders tho! Feels like this is a big gap in the current policy, increasingly being exploited. To be clear, the majority of his post is what you're calling out. I'm not endorsing that. I am focusing on a gap that I believe we (the community) could all agree needs some improvement. However, anytime we propose an improvement, we seem to get push back that there's not enough time, cycles, money, volunteer-only, etc. I would hope the legitimacy of the scores and punishment for abuse / repeat offenders would be a higher priority than simply highlighting my score on the advance stats sheet (which is cool, don't get me wrong). I sense Hippy is just overly frustrated (again not an excuse for his comments) but taking into account his 6, yes _six_, second place finishes in half a season - I can empathize with trying to be the best you can be and being handcuffed as others are seemingly enabled without recourse. Where do we go from here?
Also, paulus said something up above that I will quote because it quite accurately depicts the $$$ portion: "Donations are just that - a little something as a symbol of our appreciation for the work they do - I don't think we should have any expectations for that. Expectations of a product would only come if they charge us for it - ie mandatory payment."
(Please note that this part is my perception based off of what has been stated publicly by admins in the past, and is nothing more) I believe the donations only cover the current operating costs, nothing more. Last time I read anything about it that was stated, anyways. Time meets that problem in that I believe Tim would outsource some of the work here to offset his time deficit, but being that no surplus is generated, it doesn't make sense to do that. Remember that Tim (I don't know if other staff did as well or not) used his own funds in earlier TGCT days to offset the costs of running this site. I do not blame at all for not wanting to start down that rabbit hole again.
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Post by CuseHokie on Apr 23, 2019 12:36:48 GMT -5
So if management overhead is the reason for not enforcing a stricter standard of rules, why not just permit any controller and ditch the API concept altogether? That would certainly ease any headaches with administrators.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 12:41:06 GMT -5
So if management overhead is the reason for not enforcing a stricter standard of rules, why not just permit any controller and ditch the API concept altogether? That would certainly ease any headaches with administrators. Because the membership has stated in the past that they wish for it. I know for a fact that I would be long gone if that was allowed here.
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Post by Doyley on Apr 23, 2019 12:45:14 GMT -5
So if management overhead is the reason for not enforcing a stricter standard of rules, why not just permit any controller and ditch the API concept altogether? That would certainly ease any headaches with administrators. I think you guys are focusing on your PGA bubble with regards to Fair Play. 90% of the cases are 1 and done's from new members - it takes up a lot of our (mainly smilinggoats) time - it's a royal pain. But the alternative is the wild west and I guarantee you guys would be much less happy with that. To be honest, the fair play policy is secondary (thirdanary?) to the PS4 master race with regards to tempo and the imbalance of Master/Pro clubs on the Challenge Circuit - those two are bigger concerns ahead of the very small percentage (I can't think of more than 2 or 3 guys?) that have failed multiple fair play checks. We're working on the Pro/Master imbalance for the 60%+ of TGCT members that participate on the Challenge Circuit - which is something we can deal with - unfortunately, the PS4 vs XB1/PC tempo imbalance is out of our hands and not something we can address on site.
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Post by CuseHokie on Apr 23, 2019 12:50:11 GMT -5
So if management overhead is the reason for not enforcing a stricter standard of rules, why not just permit any controller and ditch the API concept altogether? That would certainly ease any headaches with administrators. I think you guys are focusing on your PGA bubble with regards to Fair Play. 90% of the cases are 1 and done's from new members - it takes up a lot of our (mainly smilinggoats) time - it's a royal pain. But the alternative is the wild west and I guarantee you guys would be much less happy with that. To be honest, the fair play policy is secondary (thirdanary?) to the PS4 master race with regards to tempo and the imbalance of Master/Pro clubs on the Challenge Circuit - those two are bigger concerns ahead of the very small percentage (I can't think of more than 2 or 3 guys?) that have failed multiple fair play checks. We're working on the Pro/Master imbalance for the 60%+ of TGCT members that participate on the Challenge Circuit - which is something we can deal with - unfortunately, the PS4 vs XB1/PC tempo imbalance are out of our hands and not something we can address on site. All I'm suggesting is that for the cases (which are apparently rare so this shouldn't be much effort) where there are repeat offenders, that we have more recourse versus "sorry, see you next week". There are a handful of notable offenders who are seemingly making Top10s on PGA (the weeks they aren't flagged)... If you need the names, I'll be happy to email you privately... but you should already have that data, yes?
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Post by flyingj75 on Apr 23, 2019 13:24:59 GMT -5
Most of Hippy's rant was about green speeds if I am not mistaken. Granted, he is the best putter that I have played with (using ghosts), but when the mathematics don't go as perfectly as he would like on certain speeds he gets frustrated and lashes out. Agreed it's a bad look. As for the sinners,I mean the guys that don't pass API, time to institute some proper time off.
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Post by paulus on Apr 23, 2019 13:31:49 GMT -5
I think you guys are focusing on your PGA bubble with regards to Fair Play. 90% of the cases are 1 and done's from new members You are at an advantage in having the stats available of course Absence of information creates a vacuum which sucks in speculation - can sometimes be more harmful than the pitchforks your are (understandably) trying to protect against.
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wmr5277
Amateur Golfer
Posts: 226
TGCT Name: Vitaly Potapenko
Tour: PGA
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Post by wmr5277 on Apr 23, 2019 13:34:56 GMT -5
[quote source="/post/428144/thread" timestamp="1556035705" When I look at my scores I think what went wrong? Am I really that bad? Was in top 20 of WT last season. Then I look around me and I see many of my peers from last season all around me and many below. Then I look at the top of the board I wonder who these people are? Where did they come from? Makes a guy wonder is all. Sour grapes? Maybe. [/span][/quote][/quote]Maybe more good players have signed up and are playing TGC 2019? Idk why that is such a shocking revelation to some. Think I'm maybe 35th in Moneylist and Fedex. I'm not an elite player yet but I can hold my own and would probably be top 25 in moneylist and fedex if I didn't miss the first week and then 7 weeks for a work related trip. I didn't play tgctours last season but I also find the new game a little easier than TGC 2. I'm playing a lot more of TGC 2019 too. So that definitely helps. When a new guy comes in and finishes 7th his first two weeks; my first reaction isn't "oh boy this guy is a cheater"....it's "nice. More great competition"....I always want to play the best players and the toughest courses....but hey maybe that's just me.
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Post by GW_Hope on Apr 23, 2019 13:59:47 GMT -5
You may be correct or you may be wrong. No way to know. Like I said I wonder sometimes is all. This is more on HB than the tours though.
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Post by shoey101 on Apr 23, 2019 14:08:01 GMT -5
To be clear, the majority of his post is what you're calling out. I'm not endorsing that. I am focusing on a gap that I believe we (the community) could all agree needs some improvement. However, anytime we propose an improvement, we seem to get push back that there's not enough time, cycles, money, volunteer-only, etc. I would hope the legitimacy of the scores and punishment for abuse / repeat offenders would be a higher priority than simply highlighting my score on the advance stats sheet (which is cool, don't get me wrong). I sense Hippy is just overly frustrated (again not an excuse for his comments) but taking into account his 6, yes _six_, second place finishes in half a season - I can empathize with trying to be the best you can be and being handcuffed as others are seemingly enabled without recourse. Where do we go from here? When I look at my scores I think what went wrong? Am I really that bad? Was in top 20 of WT last season. Then I look around me and I see many of my peers from last season all around me and many below. Then I look at the top of the board I wonder who these people are? Where did they come from? Makes a guy wonder is all. Sour grapes? Maybe. You cant compare being top 20 in the world tour with anything in the new game. They play totally different. I was above average in TGC1 and then struggled with TGC2 but now I am back to playing well in the new game. Just because players were good before doesnt mean they are automatically top players each year. As the game gets bigger new players will come on and be better than most and that will keep dropping the rest of us down the rankings. Doesnt always have something to do with cheating. I have been here since day 1 and if I thought the way you did I would be accusing people every week of cheating. At the end of the day you have to realize it's a game and we have a great group of volunteers that run it for us.
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Post by GW_Hope on Apr 23, 2019 14:16:11 GMT -5
Let me say I never said “cheating”.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Apr 23, 2019 15:01:16 GMT -5
When I look at my scores I think what went wrong? Am I really that bad? Was in top 20 of WT last season. Then I look around me and I see many of my peers from last season all around me and many below. Then I look at the top of the board I wonder who these people are? Where did they come from? Makes a guy wonder is all. Sour grapes? Maybe. You cant compare being top 20 in the world tour with anything in the new game. They play totally different. I was above average in TGC1 and then struggled with TGC2 but now I am back to playing well in the new game. Just because players were good before doesnt mean they are automatically top players each year. As the game gets bigger new players will come on and be better than most and that will keep dropping the rest of us down the rankings. Doesnt always have something to do with cheating. I have been here since day 1 and if I thought the way you did I would be accusing people every week of cheating. At the end of the day you have to realize it's a game and we have a great group of volunteers that run it for us. Yes, but....there was a fundamental change in gameplay from 1 to 2 - tempo. 3 is infinitely more similar to its predecessor than 2 was. I’m speaking only to gameplay differences between the 3 versions of TGC we’ve had, not in any way implying anything beyond that, for the record.
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