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Post by cliffs on Apr 21, 2019 6:20:34 GMT -5
Stats incredible: Tiger's 40 greatest numerical recordsHaving grown up watching both play the game, I am on the fence. They both dominated their eras but after reading that list I posted link to....I lean a bit more towards Tiger. I was looking for the following stats and found that list. This is why I am in awe more towards Tiger. This also why he did not have as many second place finishes as Jack did? 16. Tiger has held the outright 54-hole lead 45 times in his PGA Tour career. He went on to win 43 of them, good for a 95.6 percent clip. For context - over the last three PGA Tour seasons, players with an outright 54-hole lead have gone on to win 39.7 percent of the time. 15. Tiger has held the outright 36-hole lead 33 times in his Tour career. He went on to win 28 of them (84.8 percent). In comparison, Jack Nicklaus’ 36-hole outright conversion rate was 63 percent.
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Post by LKeet6 on Apr 21, 2019 7:18:56 GMT -5
Awesome stats cliffs!
But doesn't that still lead to more contending (exceptional) performances by Nicklaus? Plus the debate over the legends he had to play against? I think 19 second places is incredible, to be honest. Arguably means he could/would have won a LOT more in another era.
Both sides have made VERY good cases here...
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Post by paulus on Apr 21, 2019 7:59:09 GMT -5
Both sides have made VERY good cases here... Yep. Worth noting that they also got it done in very different ways; Jack generally acknowledged as not the strongest putter - but when you hit fairways like a metronome & irons stiff more often than not, you're going to get birdies. Tiger's putting in his prime was totally off the charts, particularly when the pressure was on - finding fairways tho, less of a strong point.
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Post by Irving R. Levine on Apr 21, 2019 11:28:14 GMT -5
As a player Tiger probably is the GOAT, as a sportsman it's Jack. Anyway I voted for Seve That's actually a very interesting way to look at this overall debate.
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Post by cliffs on Apr 21, 2019 12:25:16 GMT -5
In defense of Jack.... 11 reasons Jack Nicklaus is better than Tiger Woods
This one jumped out at me... 9. The comebacks - As you may have heard once or 500 times, Woods never has come from behind to win on the final day of a major. Nicklaus had eight final-day comebacks in majors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 12:37:31 GMT -5
It's funny reading here it seems seeing unless Tiger reaches Jack's 18 major's only then he will better than Jack? A crock if you ask me. Tiger is easily the GOAT. It's like saying Jason Belmonte who just set the record with 11 majors but only 20 PBA wins is better than Earl Anthony (10) or Walter Ray William's Jr (8) who both also have over 40 PBA wins. Ludicrous! You mention 40 to 20 wins. That is double and statistically significant.
81 to 73 (Tiger to Jack) is noticeable, but not statistically significant.
To take the Major comparison out further, I will point out a statistically significant difference, though:
Jack = 37 top twos in Majors (18 wins, 19 2nds)
Tiger = 22 top twos in Majors (15 wins, seven 2nds)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 12:38:54 GMT -5
In defense of Jack.... 11 reasons Jack Nicklaus is better than Tiger Woods
This one jumped out at me... 9. The comebacks - As you may have heard once or 500 times, Woods never has come from behind to win on the final day of a major. Nicklaus had eight final-day comebacks in majors. He did last week, so that is outdated by a week.
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Post by linkslover on Apr 23, 2019 7:54:11 GMT -5
I have somebody completely different to offer as a GOAT... Terry Adnams. I doubt anyone here has ever heard of him. He plays at my golf club and plays off 21. So why is he a GOAT? He's right handed. He lost his right arm in a car crash. He then took up golf with his one remaining arm. He can hit an iron around 170-180 yards (further than a significant chunk of our members with two arms) and is a three time World One Arm Golf champion. So he's the one armed GOAT. Edit: If you think it's easy - anybody who plays golf for real, try playing a shot using just your weaker arm. It's bloody difficult. It's hard enough with your better arm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 8:12:10 GMT -5
I have somebody completely different to offer as a GOAT... Terry Adnams. I doubt anyone here has ever heard of him. He plays at my golf club and plays off 21. So why is he a GOAT? He's right handed. He lost his right arm in a car crash. He then took up golf with his one remaining arm. He can hit an iron around 170-180 yards (further than a significant chunk of our members with two arms) and is a three time World One Arm Golf champion. So he's the one armed GOAT. Edit: If you think it's easy - anybody who plays golf for real, try playing a shot using just your weaker arm. It's bloody difficult. It's hard enough with your better arm. Jack Newton was a runner up in The Open, then walked into a planes propeller when drunk and lost an arm and an eye. He plays off single figures still, and is approaching 70. He’s also the reason a whole lot of kids in Australia play the game. Not saying he’s better, but similar 👍
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Post by guitarslayer on Dec 7, 2019 13:00:33 GMT -5
I think that, and Jack agrees, there is no golfer that has ever had the ability to play the game like Tiger Woods. Length, power, imagination, shotmaking ability, incredible short game, and mentally as tough as they come - no fear, and no choke in him. Aside from his driver, Tiger is the best or almost-best at every single part of the game...there has never been a better putter, ever....there has never been a better short to mid-iron player, ever...and his chipping and pitching are close to Ballesteros-level, and have been since he was a teenager. Jack was nothing like that, hell he lost a US Open playoff by not being able to get out of greenside bunkers (at Merion, vs Trevino). Terrible short game, aside from the putter. And Jack was never a shotmaker, he hit the same high fade for 95% of his shots, dogleg left or not. What Jack had was incredible power (far longer than the other long hitters of his day and the first player ever to consistently get long irons high enough to hold fast greens), and a great putting touch. Most people just don't understand how long Jack was in the early 60s when he won the bulk of his majors, in the 1963 masters he was charted on 13 and 15 averaging about 340 with persimmon and balata....I doubt any tour pro of the last 20 years could get withing 20 yards of a young Jack, using the same gear. Jack had two things going for him that Tiger never did: a far easier field to compete against and a nearly injury-free career. Jack himself has said back in the 60s and 70s he knew he only had to beat 10-15 guys in the majors, and the majors results from those years agree with him. The same 10 or 15 guys won almost all of them. Much different now, plus Tiger simply does not have the power advantage he had in 1997, as technology has allowed players with significantly less club speed to achieve similar distance, not to mention a new generation of extremely athletic and strong golfers (DJ, Koepka, Rory, etc). Jack never lost his power advantage, even in 1986 at the age of 46 he was top 10 driving distance at Augusta. The gear did not change much during his entire career, nor the courses.
So in conclusion, Tiger is the greatest player of the game, but Jack is still the greatest champion, because 18 is more than 15. But its kind of like comparing Tom Brady to Bart Starr, they are not really playing the same game. Will Tiger catch Jack's record? extremely unlikely, statistically. But not impossible.
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Post by guitarslayer on Dec 7, 2019 13:13:49 GMT -5
As great as Jack was I still believe Tiger though. Tiger has 81 (I believe) tour wins, 15 majors and dominated the game unlike anyone before or after him.I don't think this is true. Jack’s contemporaries included Arnold Palmer, Gary Player, Tom Watson and Lee Trevino, each of whom won six or more majors. Tiger’s biggest rival during his golden period was Phil Mickelson - a man Tiger pretty much had in his pocket on major Sunday's. Phil won five majors but none with Tiger in the picture. Aside from him, there are just two other players with three major wins during the Tiger golden era: Ernie Els and Vijay Singh. The evidence suggests Tiger was beating up on inferior competition. actually, the evidence suggests the opposite. The reason Jacks's peers won so many majors is because they were hardly any players on tour who could challenge the top rank - there was a much greater disparity of skill at that time. Nicklaus himself has remarked on this, and how even in the late 70s it was getting harder and harder because so many more people were playing golf (thanks to him and Palmer mostly).
With strong depth of field, you will have much rarer instances of multiple major winners, because there are so many more players with legit chances to win. The journeyman tour pros of today are so much better than there contemporaries in Jack's day.
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