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Post by Koop on Apr 14, 2019 18:30:27 GMT -5
Scores are so low in lowest tiers due mostly to the allowed use of the Fischer Price (I mean Pro) clubs. Like said above you need to be able to shoot -8 to -10 with those of you want to move up. I also agree with the guy above who said there’s a lot more people participating. And too the mandatory q school to start the season shuffled some folks with experience to lower tiers. Here’s the thing though. TGCT has never been about showing up and auto climbing to PGA. Two kinds of folks come to TGCT. Those that struggle at first and relish the challenge and practice like crazy and slowly get better. They love TGCT because they get a sense of accomplishment and they are invested. Nothing better than looking up at certain names and wishing you were that good, and then one day many months or years later being able to compete with and beat those same folks. The other kind of folks that come to TGCT come expecting to win right away and when they dont, they blame the people beating them. Accusing them of sandbagging, cheating etc. Or blaming TGCT for not making it easy for them to compete for wins. These folks don’t last. And it’s sad because they end up missing out on a lot. Suggestion...develop some friendly rivalries with some of the folks finishing similarly to you. Post back and forth on the forums. Play live matches against each other if you can. Stop considering those finishing top 5 as your rivals. Until they are. And they will be if you keep at it. The comment somebody made about PGA, Euro and Web being all that matter at TGCT. You are wrong. And you are doing it wrong. All that should matter to you in TGCT is the flight you are in, and maybe the one you want to work to get to. I would like to point out your derogatory comment referring to pro clubs as Fischer price clubs comes off as a tad elitist. I understand that this is a free site, run by volunteers an I appreciate that they have given us lowly souls a place to play. Most of the admins play at a high level so the things that happen below may or may not be forefront on their mind or agenda. You can tell me I am wrong, which you already have. I am not mad or upset about it, but that is just the way I see it. I have great fun playing in my society matches and I look forward to them more than my tour rounds. It's what keeps me playing.
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Post by Doyley on Apr 14, 2019 18:43:48 GMT -5
Most of the admins play at a high level so the things that happen below may or may not be forefront on their mind or agenda. Hi Koop, I spend a lot of time monitoring the scoring in all the CC flights. Couple reasons for why CC-Z scoring is lower 1. Season 4 you had to be demoted to CC-Z from CC-E so it was protected - this season you can go from Q-school to CC-Z so guys that just get game and do q-school while struggling land on CC-Z, then improve quickly and move up/out 2. Magnolia was recent Q-School course - and many struggled on it but shoot well on easier courses 3. Pro clubs are easier to shoot better in 2019 than in TGC2 4. way more CC-Z members (70ish last season and 190 this season) So all those factors contribute to lower scores. I just recently tweaked the baseline to get into CC-Z from Q-School so that should help a bit going forward. CC-Z will always be the flight where there is the biggest chance for mass/quick improvement - that's why CC-Am has the fast track promotion system. Appreciate you bringing it up as it helps getting feedback from all levels of play here. Just thought you should know I spend a lot of my time making sure the lower tours are balanced - I've already moved 5-10 players from CC-Z up to higher flights this season due to their low scoring.
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Post by Koop on Apr 14, 2019 18:51:28 GMT -5
Most of the admins play at a high level so the things that happen below may or may not be forefront on their mind or agenda. Hi Koop, I spend a lot of time monitoring the scoring in all the CC flights. Couple reasons for why CC-Z scoring is lower 1. Season 4 you had to be demoted to CC-Z from CC-E so it was protected - this season you can go from Q-school to CC-Z so guys that just get game and do q-school while struggling land on CC-Z, then improve quickly and move up/out 2. Magnolia was recent Q-School course - and many struggled on it but shoot well on easier courses 3. Pro clubs are easier to shoot better in 2019 than in TGC2 4. way more CC-Z members (70ish last season and 190 this season) So all those factors contribute to lower scores. I just recently tweaked the baseline to get into CC-Z from Q-School so that should help a bit going forward. CC-Z will always be the flight where there is the biggest chance for mass/quick improvement - that's why CC-Am has the fast track promotion system. Appreciate you bringing it up as it helps getting feedback from all levels of play here. Just thought you should know I spend a lot of my time making sure the lower tours are balanced - I've already moved 5-10 players from CC-Z up to higher flights this season due to their low scoring. I certain hope you know I wasn't trying to attack you or the admins in general and if I came across that way, I apologize. And I really appreciate you replying in this thread! It may seem trivial to others, but it does mean a great deal to me. Thanks again!
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Post by Doyley on Apr 14, 2019 18:52:25 GMT -5
No, didn't take it as an attack at all - that's why you got the long form reply
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Post by Violinguy69 on Apr 14, 2019 20:43:49 GMT -5
Scores are so low in lowest tiers due mostly to the allowed use of the Fischer Price (I mean Pro) clubs. Like said above you need to be able to shoot -8 to -10 with those of you want to move up. Suggestion...develop some friendly rivalries with some of the folks finishing similarly to you. Post back and forth on the forums. Play live matches against each other if you can. Stop considering those finishing top 5 as your rivals. Until they are. And they will be if you keep at it. Yeah, that crack about pro clubs is completely uncalled for.
And as for developing rivalries - that's all well and good, but the lower tours exist for the sole purpose of allowing less-skilled players to still compete for high finishes. As it stands this season, this has not been the case at all. There are those who shoot -20 or so (which is very good for CC-am and above average for CC-pro), who have zero chance of earning any kind of promotion mark let alone a top-20 finish. Yes, we can attribute some low scores to pro clubs being easier to hit without sacrificing too much distance. I don't find the game easier this year at all, but the stats show otherwise so, fine. In last year's system, I made it to Web from CC-C with master (tour) clubs. I was regularly shooting -35 ish. This year, not even close and I play more often.
The bottom line is, there is an overwhelming feeling that the lower tours are not competitive. I shot -32 on CC-C a few weeks ago and was not even close to top-20. Scores like -40 are all over the lower tours. Even with pro clubs, you still have to have a lot of skill to shoot that low. Why aren't these people on higher tours? It's because 1. they play badly in q-school (whether honestly or not), 2. it takes longer to move up, and 3. it's more fun to dominate on a lower tour than struggle on a higher one for some people so they sandbag just enough to not move up too much.
There is epic frustration on the CC tours. There needs to be a lot of thinking and reevatluating done before next season, because there is definitely a feeling of hopelessness down here in CC land. There are surely things I don't know behind the scenes, and I trust the admins here, but there is a thread like this with alarming regularity around here. It's worth a look to make things more competitive for us CCers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 20:57:19 GMT -5
It’s absurd to suggest everyone should be contending for wins or high finishes. If you’re struggling with Pro clubs maybe try the beginner tour that uses Beginner clubs.
I agree that people sandbag for Q school, all the way up to at least Web. There were people started on Web when this game came out who were clearly good enough for Euro or PGA, but chose to shoot poorly - which pushes someone else up to a tier they shouldn’t be on. Thankfully it all works out over time - let the babies have their wins, then they’ll be gone.
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Post by cephyn on Apr 15, 2019 8:40:12 GMT -5
I have to agree that it's absurd to expect to contend for wins or high finishes - every flight is going to have people who are good enough to get out of it, not good enough to stay in it, and people who are in the right place.
People get 'stuck' or whatever because they're in the right place for their skill level. They've been sorted exactly where they belong.
I'm #1 on the CC-B money list. I have earned 3 promo marks, no demo marks. I've never won. Never had a top 5 finish. I'm exactly where I belong on skill level. I'm contending in the way I should be - for the money list, for sustained solid CCB play, not for promo marks. People on the CCB money list are my competition, because I know they're sticking around CCB. And I'm theirs. Not the people who are promoing up, or demoing down. Those people aren't my competition, they're someone else's.
The tours ARE competitive. People move up and down all the time. And I've seen TONS of folks struggle after promo events, because they've gone up too high - and they're just as miserable, maybe more so, as when they were "stuck".
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Post by mde8965 on Apr 15, 2019 8:56:27 GMT -5
Yeah, that crack about pro clubs is completely uncalled for.
[/quote] I agree my comment using the term Fischer Price was uncalled for and I’m sorry about that. But as for me being elitist. If you think that it’s very untrue. When I started in TGCT in 2016 I struggled mightily after qualifying in CC-C. My second tournament I had a top 10 due to beginners luck. But then languished in the bottom half of CC-C. I joined a couple societies where players in the Web and PGA/Euro guys played and finished last time and time again. But I participated in conversations with those guys on the forum. And I read every thread in the clubhouse section of this forum and tried all the tips and tricks until I learned to putt, Chip and flop fairly well. But my drives were all over the place. One of the players that was on Euro at the time and finished top 10 regularly conversed with me a good bit. I asked for his help. He gave me a lot of tips regarding controller grip, thumb position, etc. I practiced like crazy. And once I was hitting inside the cone, I started scoring. Confidence took off from there and at the end of that season I was doing well in CC-A. Point is I did not complain in those early days that TGCT wasn’t fair, that the good players were sandbaggers and cheaters etc. I owned it and took it upon myself to get better and to develop friendships. And to me that is what makes this place so great... My comment about Pro clubs is because in my humble opinion there is too much of a disparity between difficulty between Pro and Master clubs to have them competing on the same leaderboard. And if that had been a thing when I started TGCT I would have been very frustrated in CC as well. I totally understand why it is that way currently. It was a no win situation unless you have 25 tiers with all Pro club tiers and others with all Masters. And that’s not practical from an administrative standpoint. Tim, Doyley and everyone else do a terrific job and put a lot of effort into running TGCT. And now that the game is seemingly revamped every year it’s very difficult to make everyone happy. It just doesn’t sit well with me when people say things like “they seriously need to rethink, or do this or that”. I mean it’s good to bring up concerns. And trust me they pay attention. But it’s an evolving process. I’m getting off track. I get that some in CC are frustrated. Voice concerns but in a positive way. The folks running the place are not looking to be unfair or frustrate anyone. But instead of focusing on the negative, just focus on trying to get better and making friends or friendly rivalries. And be patient, you will get better.
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Post by kickingguru on Apr 15, 2019 17:38:13 GMT -5
The original poster was talking about not being able to get out of CC-Z. That is a skill problem in the game. Others are complaining about hitting their head against a ceiling in CC-C, B, or A. Those are different animals but also about skill. My experience? I went from Z to A through fast promo's and the such. I was in Z in week 1 and am now in A. I have hit the ceiling as I tried to move to Masters club and am about to be demoted to B. Let me tell you, the guys in A are solid. These are two different issues but neither is a problem of real true sandbagging or cheesing. I can admit that I hit a skill ceiling that will require practice to break through. I could have stuck with Pro clubs but would not have moved past the position I was in CC-A. Instead of complaining about others, it is really up to the player to get better and it is possible. I am doing this with a regular controller on an xbox. The only aid is a metronome to keep my swing in tempo. We live in a world however, that does not like having personal accountability so lets blame cheaters, cheesers, and sandbaggers. Rant over..
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