bosic84
Caddy
That. Is. Sensational.
Posts: 24
TGCT Name: Graeme Bulloch
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bosic84 on Mar 28, 2019 8:11:13 GMT -5
Average designer here throwing my thrupence worth in.
From my time on TGC franchise (towards end of TGC2) and on TGCTours (about 7 events in to the current season), I've noticed a massive difference in the quality of courses produced by the community.
At times it's made me think that's there's no point in me designing because I can't compete with these designers / courses, but I enjoy designing (at times) and want to improve, and feel I have done.
My first course for TGC2019 was High Castle Forest. On XBOX it has around 100 plays and rated 4 star, which I'm really proud of. Currently working on a links course which I'm hoping will be even better.
But I digress, the point I was going looking to make is that although there is an abundance of top designers and courses now, I do have to agree with the original post in that some of the courses which are making it on to the tours aren't at the level you'd expect... given the choice available.
I may be creating a rod for my on back here, but it seems as though certain designers are favoured when it comes to course selection for the tour. Most of the courses there's no question over, top courses, tricky courses, unique and astetically pleasing. Some courses do make you wonder though. Is it a case that the scheduler is trying to give as many designers a shot as possible, or is there favouritism / cliques where some designers / courses get preferential treatment? I don't know.
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Post by LKeet6 on Mar 28, 2019 8:26:06 GMT -5
Average designer here throwing my thrupence worth in. From my time on TGC franchise (towards end of TGC2) and on TGCTours (about 7 events in to the current season), I've noticed a massive difference in the quality of courses produced by the community. At times it's made me think that's there's no point in me designing because I can't compete with these designers / courses, but I enjoy designing (at times) and want to improve, and feel I have done. My first course for TGC2019 was High Castle Forest. On XBOX it has around 100 plays and rated 4 star, which I'm really proud of. Currently working on a links course which I'm hoping will be even better. But I digress, the point I was going looking to make is that although there is an abundance of top designers and courses now, I do have to agree with the original post in that some of the courses which are making it on to the tours aren't at the level you'd expect... given the choice available. I may be creating a rod for my on back here, but it seems as though certain designers are favoured when it comes to course selection for the tour. Most of the courses there's no question over, top courses, tricky courses, unique and astetically pleasing. Some courses do make you wonder though. Is it a case that the scheduler is trying to give as many designers a shot as possible, or is there favouritism / cliques where some designers / courses get preferential treatment? I don't know.
If OP had put his position in a reasoanble way like this, i think fewer would have criticised.
Slightly controversial final point! But at least you said you don't know and weren't aggressive about it...
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 28, 2019 8:28:51 GMT -5
There is no clique.
Seriously, please stop.
Courses being overlooked happens to even the most revered designers. There are about a dozen high quality courses published every week.
We play 5 or 6 of them each week.
At least half go unplayed, statistically speaking.
EDIT: I know this post has a tone of aggravation. It's because we literally had this conversation earlier this week, and we had one at the end of season 4 that got a little out of hand.
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Post by cephyn on Mar 28, 2019 8:43:16 GMT -5
Average designer here throwing my thrupence worth in. From my time on TGC franchise (towards end of TGC2) and on TGCTours (about 7 events in to the current season), I've noticed a massive difference in the quality of courses produced by the community. At times it's made me think that's there's no point in me designing because I can't compete with these designers / courses, but I enjoy designing (at times) and want to improve, and feel I have done. My first course for TGC2019 was High Castle Forest. On XBOX it has around 100 plays and rated 4 star, which I'm really proud of. Currently working on a links course which I'm hoping will be even better. But I digress, the point I was going looking to make is that although there is an abundance of top designers and courses now, I do have to agree with the original post in that some of the courses which are making it on to the tours aren't at the level you'd expect... given the choice available. I may be creating a rod for my on back here, but it seems as though certain designers are favoured when it comes to course selection for the tour. Most of the courses there's no question over, top courses, tricky courses, unique and astetically pleasing. Some courses do make you wonder though. Is it a case that the scheduler is trying to give as many designers a shot as possible, or is there favouritism / cliques where some designers / courses get preferential treatment? I don't know. If they stay with 'safe' courses from 'known' designers - they get accused of clique support. If they choose courses that are maybe a little rougher from newer/less well known designers, they get accused of choosing bad courses and not picking the best available (from known designers). How can they win?
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bosic84
Caddy
That. Is. Sensational.
Posts: 24
TGCT Name: Graeme Bulloch
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bosic84 on Mar 28, 2019 8:48:21 GMT -5
Average designer here throwing my thrupence worth in. From my time on TGC franchise (towards end of TGC2) and on TGCTours (about 7 events in to the current season), I've noticed a massive difference in the quality of courses produced by the community. At times it's made me think that's there's no point in me designing because I can't compete with these designers / courses, but I enjoy designing (at times) and want to improve, and feel I have done. My first course for TGC2019 was High Castle Forest. On XBOX it has around 100 plays and rated 4 star, which I'm really proud of. Currently working on a links course which I'm hoping will be even better. But I digress, the point I was going looking to make is that although there is an abundance of top designers and courses now, I do have to agree with the original post in that some of the courses which are making it on to the tours aren't at the level you'd expect... given the choice available. I may be creating a rod for my on back here, but it seems as though certain designers are favoured when it comes to course selection for the tour. Most of the courses there's no question over, top courses, tricky courses, unique and astetically pleasing. Some courses do make you wonder though. Is it a case that the scheduler is trying to give as many designers a shot as possible, or is there favouritism / cliques where some designers / courses get preferential treatment? I don't know. If they stay with 'safe' courses from 'known' designers - they get accused of clique support. If they choose courses that are maybe a little rougher from newer/less well known designers, they get accused of choosing bad courses and not picking the best available (from known designers). How can they win? I take your point, but not sure I agree. Good quality courses would stand up on their own merit, regardless of who designed them. There's an abundance of them to choose from at the moment. Were luckily in an era where we're spoiled for choice. EDIT: Just so we're clear. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. My point based on the perception since being part of community.
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Mar 28, 2019 9:28:20 GMT -5
It must be hard to check out all the courses old and new in the database and pick 6 for each week. I'm guessing they'd check the forums and see what's creating a buzz, check them out and add them to a list of suitable courses for each flight.
Certain designers will get more forum traffic as they have a track record of good courses. It can be hard for newer designers to get noticed or for someone to give your course a chance. Getting reviews of your course can both help get it noticed and valuable feedback. I've learnt not to get too caught up with my courses and to design for yourself and not a tour spot.
I've been fortunate enough to get a course on tour and have a couple of courses handicapped. It took me until my 4th submitted course to get a tour stop, so it may take a bit of time to noticed.
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 28, 2019 9:28:38 GMT -5
I can only speak for CC where I work with Dan to build the schedule. I don't know how other schedulers build their schedules.
When scheduling, whether Course A is of better quality than Course B is not something Dan and I consider.
We only consider whether Course A is of a high enough quality to host an event. And for that, we rely on our reviewers (of which Dan is one).
Then we consider what kinds of challenges are presented by the course and determine whether it fits. Sometimes we're looking for something more challenging; sometimes we are looking for something easier.
If there is a course you think we overlooked, please feel free to post it in the course suggestion thread. I can only speak for CC, but we do look there for suggestions.
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bosic84
Caddy
That. Is. Sensational.
Posts: 24
TGCT Name: Graeme Bulloch
Tour: Challenge Circuit
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Post by bosic84 on Mar 28, 2019 10:26:20 GMT -5
Appreciate you sharing your rationale ErixonStone , and I agree Celtic Wolf - having the responsibility of choosing the courses isn't one I'd like to have. You will never please everyone. My post wasn't in any way trying to say that my course should have been on a tour. I know I'm nowhere near level of some of the designers in the community. It's still a learning curve for me which I hope to improve with every course I publish so that at some stage down the line I can have a course which is worthy of a tour event. My original point, which I feel has been lost a bit is that there are so many great courses out there now, and you do (and it's not that often) sometimes get a course on the tour which raises the eyebrow a bit. I think there's probably quite a lot of people who would agree on that. And to be fair, it's probably more on the aesthetics of those courses than the playability. I appreciate that it is time consuming for those behind the scenes to play and review courses each weeks and would not far off a full time job to play them all. ErixonStone can I ask, is there such a thing behind the scenes as a bank or database of tour event worthy courses that events are selected from? Or is it a case of the scheduler/reviewer will play a few random submitted courses each week and the recommendation then comes from that?
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 28, 2019 11:44:42 GMT -5
is there such a thing behind the scenes as a bank or database of tour event worthy courses that events are selected from? Not a behind-the-scenes one: it is linked from the main TGCTours.com site's menu: TGC2019 TGCTours-Approved Courses
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Post by joegolferg on Mar 29, 2019 7:33:22 GMT -5
I'll say one thing for certain... We're going to see an influx of unpolished Lidar courses in the near future.
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Post by moneyman273 on Mar 29, 2019 8:14:14 GMT -5
Yes, original designs - i should have been more clear. Exactly. New courses are a dime a dozen - it's not hard to find new great courses (Great is the new average) but there are some courses that are OUTSTANDING that only get played once and forgotten about unless they get into your favorite bin. TGCTours needs to establish a list of Super Great courses (some how) that get played each year. Maybe 4 to 6 courses or at least START to do something in that direction with a couple and add a new one each year. Since it LOOKS like TGC will be around for a while TGCTours needs to start looking at how to create special weeks on tour. I think TGCTours is fantastic. I truly doubt I would play TGC in not for TGCTours I disagree that "great is the new average". Please provide a few examples of courses that are OUTSTANDING but get lost in the shuffle. Aren't the terms "great" and "outstanding" kind of subjective? With all due respect, a course that was created 8 or 9 months ago is going to get lost in the shuffle, especially with thousands of courses being published in this game. That's the reality of the game. FWIW, I've loathed the moment HB went to a star system for rating. If memory serves me correct, you could give say, an 8.9/10 on a course rating in TGC 1. At that point, I'd love to see HB create a way to filter and search for 9+/10 courses that have less than 1,000 plays. I'm a huge advocate for the hidden gems that are underplayed. HB's ability to search for courses is average at best, and I'm being very nice here.
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Post by B.Smooth13 on Mar 29, 2019 8:26:07 GMT -5
I'll say one thing for certain... We're going to see an influx of unpolished Lidar courses in the near future. If by near future, you mean ongoing, then agreed.
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Post by Celtic Wolf on Mar 29, 2019 9:02:24 GMT -5
I'll say one thing for certain... We're going to see an influx of unpolished Lidar courses in the near future. If by near future, you mean ongoing, then agreed. I agree with this, Lidar in a good designer's hands is a great thing but in less experienced hands it can result in a true to life course that's unpolished.
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Mar 29, 2019 9:29:31 GMT -5
plays means nothing. Courses get lost in the shuffle. Turu Wero still isn't even handicapped in this game. *shrug* Don't worry about plays or ratings. If folks like your stuff they will tell you. HOWEVER...if they don't you won't know until they show up on tour. THEN you'll hear it.
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Post by hmammoth on Mar 29, 2019 12:26:07 GMT -5
It must be hard to check out all the courses old and new in the database and pick 6 for each week. I'm guessing they'd check the forums and see what's creating a buzz, check them out and add them to a list of suitable courses for each flight. Certain designers will get more forum traffic as they have a track record of good courses. It can be hard for newer designers to get noticed or for someone to give your course a chance. Getting reviews of your course can both help get it noticed and valuable feedback. I've learnt not to get too caught up with my courses and to design for yourself and not a tour spot. I've been fortunate enough to get a course on tour and have a couple of courses handicapped. It took me until my 4th submitted course to get a tour stop, so it may take a bit of time to noticed. I want to throw in a comment based on something you said but not aimed at you if that makes sense. You said it was your fourth course before you got a tour stop but it may take time to get noticed. Speaking from my own personal point of view as a scheduler, designers get noticed long before their first tour course. There are a number of designers whose courses I played, that while the course may not be what I am looking for, or just short of tour worthy, done enough to get me very interested in what they are going to produce in the future. In your case, I knew it was only a matter of time before you got a tour spot, and there are others out there I feel the same about. I just can’t comment on every course I play, but us schedulers are noticing but not just us, I get messages from others recommending courses all the time. And while courses will slip by, there are only so many hours in a day, and limited tour spots, most courses are checked out one way or another.
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