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Post by grinder12000 on Mar 25, 2019 16:17:06 GMT -5
To be clear, you are specifically talking about fictional courses when you write "TGCT designer course". Do I understand you correctly? Yes, original designs - i should have been more clear. Exactly. New courses are a dime a dozen - it's not hard to find new great courses (Great is the new average) but there are some courses that are OUTSTANDING that only get played once and forgotten about unless they get into your favorite bin. TGCTours needs to establish a list of Super Great courses (some how) that get played each year. Maybe 4 to 6 courses or at least START to do something in that direction with a couple and add a new one each year. Since it LOOKS like TGC will be around for a while TGCTours needs to start looking at how to create special weeks on tour. I think TGCTours is fantastic. I truly doubt I would play TGC in not for TGCTours
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Post by mart280 on Mar 25, 2019 19:08:28 GMT -5
It would be nice to play some familiar courses down in the CC, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, or maybe St Andrews, any of the well known championship courses really.
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Post by jwtexan on Mar 26, 2019 11:05:25 GMT -5
It would be nice to play some familiar courses down in the CC, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, or maybe St Andrews, any of the well known championship courses really. You are in luck. We are going to get crushed at Magnolia National (Augusta) next week...
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Post by BMann1976 on Mar 26, 2019 11:10:07 GMT -5
No, but designers can stop with the 600 yard par 5's and the 500 yard par 4's. Not everyone uses Master clubs. On CC-A have reached a Par 5 in 2 on like one hole in the last 4 tournaments. How about changing up some tees. I am doing well enough score wise, I would just like to see some variety.
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Post by cephyn on Mar 26, 2019 11:10:25 GMT -5
It would be nice to play some familiar courses down in the CC, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, or maybe St Andrews, any of the well known championship courses really. You are in luck. We are going to get crushed at Magnolia National (Augusta) next week... Exactly. Next week the greens will grow long on the tears of the CC players.
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Post by cephyn on Mar 26, 2019 11:11:18 GMT -5
No, but designers can stop with the 600 yard par 5's and the 500 yard par 4's. Not everyone uses Master clubs. On CC-A have reached a Par 5 in 2 on like one hole in the last 4 tournaments. How about changing up some tees. I am doing well enough score wise, I would just like to see some variety. Not every par 5 needs to be reachable in two.
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Post by BMann1976 on Mar 26, 2019 11:13:01 GMT -5
No, but designers can stop with the 600 yard par 5's and the 500 yard par 4's. Not everyone uses Master clubs. On CC-A have reached a Par 5 in 2 on like one hole in the last 4 tournaments. How about changing up some tees. I am doing well enough score wise, I would just like to see some variety. Not every par 5 needs to be reachable in two. And not everyone needs to not be. I guess it's not really on the designers but as I mentioned before maybe the tee selection could have some variety.
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 26, 2019 14:15:22 GMT -5
I can only speak to last week's course because I honestly don't remember what courses have what types of par-5s. I have a couple of points of view: Designer Hat and Scheduler Hat, and they don't always agree (see: User-Selected Course Conditions)
(Designer Hat) Last week, there were two par 5s. One was reachable for the longest players in 2 (I went for it each time I put my drive in the fairway). The other was not reachable, even for the longest players; it was a true 3-shot par-5. The decision on the 2nd shot was whether to hit near the green and have a pitch, or to lay back beyond the creek and have a full wedge into the green, or to lay way back before the creek and have a mid-short iron to the green.
Long par 4s are meant to entice players to take additional risk. On a 500 yard par 4, a Pro Driver leaves 210-220 and you're hitting a 5W. A Master Driver leaves 180-190 and you're hitting a 5I or 6I. These holes don't work as well at 450 yards where the decision is Driver + 6I vs. Driver + 9I.
Last week there were a few of these holes - 4, 9, 14, 16 and 18. There were also a few short par 4s under 400 yards where Pro Club players could take advantage: 5, 8, 10, 15.
Last week, I got the feedback from Pro Club players that they hated having to lay up and accept a long approach so often. I also got the feedback from Master Club users that they felt they were appropriately rewarded for taking a risk and using Master Clubs. My thoughts on that feedback were, "That's exactly what I wanted you to feel."
(Scheduler Hat) Specifically last week, we moved up the tees to the middle tees because the course just plays absurdly long from the tips and many of the options are taken away because they are just not reachable in all but the most favorable winds.
When it comes to CC-Pro, we are trying to encourage (trick?) players into thinking they need the length of Master Clubs to compete. If you want to avoid having a lot of long approaches, then you will need to take on additional risk.
Still, Pro Club users won 3 of the 4 CC-Pro flights last week.
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Post by cephyn on Mar 26, 2019 14:30:30 GMT -5
I knew Patrick would come in with the data.
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Post by ErixonStone on Mar 26, 2019 15:19:17 GMT -5
I knew Patrick would come in with the data. My post above is more commentary than it is about data. There are, however certain facts about the course that can be overlooked. This is a cognitive bias that we all exhibit, so pointing out this information is meant to dispel misperceptions. Maybe someone thinks 5 long par 4s out of 12 is too many. That would certainly be a reasonable opinion, based in fact (as opposed to "every hole seemed to be layup and long approach"). If we all agree on the facts, then we can have a reasonable, meaningful discussion about opinions. "I understand your point, but I disagree with your opinion/conclusion because..." is a great way to have a constructive dialog.
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Post by grinder12000 on Mar 27, 2019 8:05:28 GMT -5
It would be nice to play some familiar courses down in the CC, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, or maybe St Andrews, any of the well known championship courses really. You are in luck. We are going to get crushed at Magnolia National (Augusta) next week... I won Magnola last year in CCD so I’m looking forward to it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 23:36:13 GMT -5
grinder12000 You said you’ve probably given only ten courses a 5-star rating... I’d be curious to hear that list. Also, regarding plays, that’s not a good metric IMO and can be anecdotally proven. For example, my original Devon Quarry course has 150,000+ plays, and it is the worst course in my portfolio. My Club at Ravenswood has over 100,000 I think. All of my courses added up are probably over 500,000 plays, so by that logic I should be a top designer, but I think I’m good, not great. I just think stars and plays don’t tell a good story. Also, nobody said TGC golfers are stupid, but there are a ton of golfers who give bad star ratings based on playing poorly. You’re giving them too much credit for thinking about it. Because the system is anonymous, it’s very easy to mindlessly click 3, 2, or even 1 on the star rating and walk away, because it doesn’t require a cerebral engagement. Finally, we DO use a lot of players, many of them very good at this game, on our contest judging panels, just to clarify that point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 23:41:55 GMT -5
I have only given 6 courses a 5 star rating and one of those is a par 3 course. Probably already said this but I have my own way of rating things and I'm not sure if it's the right way to do it. I just don't want to 5 star tons of courses and the same with favouriting. Anything 3 stars and above I have as a really good course and I just hope I'm not affecting the courses overall rating by doing this. By the way those 6 courses are out of just under 50 played courses since the 11th. It also helps that I keep a spreadsheet of every course I play and the star rating I give it. This is so I don't have to go digging through the game menus...... and I love looking at spreadsheets
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 2:02:20 GMT -5
To be fair, I think the bitter down-raters following a bad round are balanced out to a significant extent by friends, cliques, designers who empathise with the amount of work gone in (and in some cases after designers shamelessly solicit positive reviews for their course) who auto 5-star assuming it's not a total trainwreck. With a large enough sample size I think you can more or less trust the star ratings. Just like on Amazon if a product has a 4.2/5 rating across hundreds of reviews, you can be very confident that's a great quality product. I think 4 stars and above in this game over a large sample size is almost always going to be a fantastic course.
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Post by grinder12000 on Mar 28, 2019 8:04:00 GMT -5
I’ve only given out one 1 Star when there was literally no way to cross the water in that wind from the fairway. I know Artic Fire has gotten a couple of 5 Stars when I did not know who he was. Since I play courses in groups of 4 normally there are 20 points I can give so I average things out over 4 rounds. This way I can see how the designer uses the wind and so forth. 72 holes will give you a good feel
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