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Post by GW_Hope on Mar 9, 2019 2:29:17 GMT -5
By light pressure I mean the analog is "let go of" easier, nothing to do with speed (tempo would be off if it was a speed thing). My swing is not a flick at all. Full swing, but the light pressure means I don't hold the analog up on the plastic, rather I am letting go right as it hits it. No offense but that is the most ridiculous comment I’ve read in awhile. I call BS. If not, prove me wrong with video Edit: Swing however you feel like but just don’t try to say you aren’t flicking it. That is proabably 90% of tbe DQs 2nd edit: Sorry, calmed down. I do remember Bob attempting to learn the full swing so maybe you did stick to it. But I would imagine your lines nowhere near as short as they were if tbts the case. Just tired of tbe same conversation. Bob, you are the one who stated you are flicking it. From one of your posts. “The downswing for me is a flick, but not a flick of the analog, but rather a flick of my left hand to recenter the controller back from the downwards tip/tilt I put on in the backswing”. A flick is a flick. So I said BS. Sorry tgctours.proboards.com/thread/16514/controller-grip
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Post by hippystein on Mar 9, 2019 4:46:00 GMT -5
Interesting, I hit full line with A fairbit off movement . right to left.but very rarely out of the blue. Ihold the pad in my left hand and swing the left stick with my right hand. No resting on legs or tables i actually hold it at an angle and cos of that if i get comfortable and in a grove i can get good dispersion.but nowhere near zero deviation. When i had scores removed the other week when i was leading. I didnt get pulled for zero deviation as i had NONE but i got pulled because my line was too consistent over a combination of rounds 3 and 4. Even though i played all four rounds in a row with the same pad. No zero deviations but i swung it too well. Ive carried out testing with various swing methods and the results are crazy. My chess piece swing is the one ive swung with since early tiger days so it feels natural swinging the stick with either right or left hand. If i change to the right analogue stick it is still consistently in the blue but more to the right due to hand angle not being as much as reaching over to the left one. I also do it when playing on xbox controllers with the left stick. Ive also tried the short swing( flick) which is a different beast. I struggle more with tempo but when its good its outrageous. I dont get how my normal line is better than the short swing but yet short swing goes a lot straighter. It is 2-3 boxes more accurate on average than the full swing due to squirts and the more accurate feedback by a full swing. If you deloft or loft a full swing the ball squirts off of the intended line unless combated with draw or fade spin to balance it out. Which i have to do to get good results. Whereas The short swing is a lot more accurate. And you can loft as much as you like and still get accurate flight with minimal adjustment. Thus making knocking it close to the hole a hell of a lot easier than the full swing. I saw a video sloan did on the discrepancy between a full and a short swing on a flat hole. With zero wind hed done in the designer on twitch. Fair play to him as the results are damming. In about 30 shots with the full swing he didnt have a single hole in one but yet using the short swing on the same shot had 6 HOLE IN ONES in a row. That says it all. Ive seen various streams of winners on tour this year and all with the exception of justin brad and mitch all short swing. The feedback on some are outside the blue but still hit it straight and although they say theyve pushed it or pulled it. They dont know what a proper push is like cos its lessened considerably by the short swing. Is it cheating? NO Is it a advantage? Hell yes Is it a trustworthy swing? ?? With how all pads can be rigged and easily manipulated to short swing the api is irrelevant and pointless as you can swing it bad and get the same results as a straight shooter. Its like the old hori days. No skill just good tempo and your good to go. Players that couldnt hit a cows arse with a banjo with players clubs are now competing across the board. And going undetected. I saw api results for a pga player the other week and hes outside the blue loads and shot 54 with 94.4% gir and longest putt at about 13ft and was that wide dickie birds arms would fall off. This can only be possible by short swinging. I asked tgct to look at there metric with regards to api and stats as a combined source of info on tour to alleviate the issue but they said they arent changing and if i dont like it dont play!!!!! I really enjoy the tour and just wanna compete on a fair playing field. I know ive got more chance of a unicorn winning the gold cup at 1000000/1. How can you be outside the blue and still stiff everything all the time is beside me. . Note to self: Must learn to swing bad to score really good. Cheers hb!!!!!!!!
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 9, 2019 5:47:41 GMT -5
Interesting, I hit full line with A fairbit off movement . right to left.but very rarely out of the blue. Ihold the pad in my left hand and swing the left stick with my right hand. No resting on legs or tables i actually hold it at an angle and cos of that if i get comfortable and in a grove i can get good dispersion.but nowhere near zero deviation. When i had scores removed the other week when i was leading. I didnt get pulled for zero deviation as i had NONE but i got pulled because my line was too consistent over a combination of rounds 3 and 4. Even though i played all four rounds in a row with the same pad. No zero deviations but i swung it too well. Ive carried out testing with various swing methods and the results are crazy. My chess piece swing is the one ive swung with since early tiger days so it feels natural swinging the stick with either right or left hand. If i change to the right analogue stick it is still consistently in the blue but more to the right due to hand angle not being as much as reaching over to the left one. I also do it when playing on xbox controllers with the left stick. Ive also tried the short swing( flick) which is a different beast. I struggle more with tempo but when its good its outrageous. I dont get how my normal line is better than the short swing but yet short swing goes a lot straighter. It is 2-3 boxes more accurate on average than the full swing due to squirts and the more accurate feedback by a full swing. If you deloft or loft a full swing the ball squirts off of the intended line unless combated with draw or fade spin to balance it out. Which i have to do to get good results. Whereas The short swing is a lot more accurate. And you can loft as much as you like and still get accurate flight with minimal adjustment. Thus making knocking it close to the hole a hell of a lot easier than the full swing. I saw a video sloan did on the discrepancy between a full and a short swing on a flat hole. With zero wind hed done in the designer on twitch. Fair play to him as the results are damming. In about 30 shots with the full swing he didnt have a single hole in one but yet using the short swing on the same shot had 6 HOLE IN ONES in a row. That says it all. Ive seen various streams of winners on tour this year and all with the exception of justin brad and mitch all short swing. The feedback on some are outside the blue but still hit it straight and although they say theyve pushed it or pulled it. They dont know what a proper push is like cos its lessened considerably by the short swing. Is it cheating? NO Is it a advantage? Hell yes Is it a trustworthy swing? ?? With how all pads can be rigged and easily manipulated to short swing the api is irrelevant and pointless as you can swing it bad and get the same results as a straight shooter. Its like the old hori days. No skill just good tempo and your good to go. Players that couldnt hit a cows arse with a banjo with players clubs are now competing across the board. And going undetected. I saw api results for a pga player the other week and hes outside the blue loads and shot 54 with 94.4% gir and longest putt at about 13ft and was that wide dickie birds arms would fall off. This can only be possible by short swinging. I asked tgct to look at there metric with regards to api and stats as a combined source of info on tour to alleviate the issue but they said they arent changing and if i dont like it dont play!!!!! I really enjoy the tour and just wanna compete on a fair playing field. I know ive got more chance of a unicorn winning the gold cup at 1000000/1. How can you be outside the blue and still stiff everything all the time is beside me. . Note to self: Must learn to swing bad to score really good. Cheers hb!!!!!!!! Today’s Winner is Scotty Fulton. Your speedboat will be delivered in the morning.
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Post by SweetTeeBag on Mar 9, 2019 10:30:58 GMT -5
Played like sh!t but had the only ace for the week so far lol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:42:13 GMT -5
No offense but that is the most ridiculous comment I’ve read in awhile. I call BS. If not, prove me wrong with video Edit: Swing however you feel like but just don’t try to say you aren’t flicking it. That is proabably 90% of tbe DQs 2nd edit: Sorry, calmed down. I do remember Bob attempting to learn the full swing so maybe you did stick to it. But I would imagine your lines nowhere near as short as they were if tbts the case. Just tired of tbe same conversation. Bob, you are the one who stated you are flicking it. From one of your posts. “The downswing for me is a flick, but not a flick of the analog, but rather a flick of my left hand to recenter the controller back from the downwards tip/tilt I put on in the backswing”. A flick is a flick. So I said BS. Sorry tgctours.proboards.com/thread/16514/controller-gripIt is a rotation of the controller to be very precise with language. This is done with the opposite hand that is on the analog - with my left hand.
Everyone's swing can be called a flick that hits the top of the plastic as well if you think about it. Some of us let go of the analog a bit sooner (barely or not hitting the plastic at all) to stop it. Others are letting the plastic stop the analog. Either way it will be stopped by some kind of deceleration. Whether that is from "letting off the gas" (letting go of the analog) OR keeping full speed forward and smashing into a wall (hitting the plastic) it is the same. One is stopping forward movement of said analog.
I have my right thumb on the analog. It only moves a small bit. The majority of my movement is rotating the controller with the opposite hand. So sure, a flick. Not of the analog for me, but a flick of the wrist.
I am saying it is not a flick in the sense that I think everyone imagines one... holding the analog (like a chess piece or sometimes not) and moving the analog forward briefly. But if it matches your definiton of one, then yes I am.
Maybe I am mimicing that same thing in a totally different manner. *shrug*
So that gets more into the psychology in these threads... Keep in mind when you use the term "flick" I sense it as used around here as pushing derogatory and that it is somehow shady. For your opinion that is fine, but remember that using a broad based term that encompasses people that pass and also those sometimes don't pass API all as the same will get me out to defend my own position. I pass API every time. You could ask staff to make it so my swing is illegal, but that moves the goalposts for everyone. I could be in the top 1% of those that are getting close to the line. I could be top 10%. I could be top 25%. I have no idea. Since these tours are run by volunteers, I don't push to know "how legal" or "barely legal" my swing is. I always say here in case they are reading this that I am open to them using my data in chart form or how they wish. But I don't want to waste their time unless I have to (FPP thread for its intended purposes).
Going back to the above about terminology.. I get the impression that some would like this way of swinging (in our golf game) made illegal. So that is, of course, unenforceable to watch every single person and can be vague in terms of what "is" and "isn't" a flick, etc. So all I got outside of that is to take known and admitted users of this method (I suppose I am here taking the brunt of the blow for others? I don't know) and make their baseline swing the edge of "out" and API fils. Now you also just made a whole slew of other "regular" swings API fails as well (1%? 10%? 25%?). Could be your own, as well. We don't know who or how many.
Using Jeff's (SG) metrics he had somewhere (I have no idea where the thread is) he had assigned API outs as category A I think? Then category B was just in, then onto category C and maybe a D where the more regular users are. No idea where I am on that chart. I assume I am a "B" but who know.
This here is my interpretation of how API works, so I could be off somehow: Remember that the API is based on variance and has no nose for who "flicks" or who doesn't. It doesn't care about differing interpretations of what is considered "cheese" or "legit" by this person or that person. It tells staff how spread out ones variance chart is for whatever time period (round or tournament) they wish to look at. Then they have guidelines for what is in and out (both for too clustered and for dead straight). You pass or fail according to your metrics compared to their guidelines.
So having a semantics debate is fine on a personal level between you and I and the other poor souls who actually read this diatribe. You can have your own opinion on what you think is BS, cheese, or illegal. We all have our opinions. It is when I see this being pushed towards adjusting API or making "the flick illegal" (not saying you in particular here, but the general gist sometimes of direction of a thread) that I feel the need to say things that I do and explain further what I do and my stances. Adjust for my swing to be illegal and I don't have a clue how many others get caught in API then.
We have seen how disappointed, frustrated, and upset some have become in the past when they have been removed due to a "false positive". I am not going to mention names as I don't want to link a specific person to getting pulled, but I remember a case where staff itself was perplexed or flummoxed (not sure the right term as can only see what they typed in stream) and they have had that person play rounds on stream and altering their controller from one point to another while that staff person was checking API (this was in a TGCT tournament that said API pulled person was not a tour member of).
So I have gone on a tangent again and sorry to all of those who have actually read this. I at least added some music and women in lightly clothed outfits to pass the time.
Quick shot back to the actual thread: One of the better courses we have played this season here on PGA. Enjoyed the "tough, but fair" setup.
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Post by CuseHokie on Mar 9, 2019 11:53:25 GMT -5
Gonna have to start calling you Bobby Balone with those photos of the ladies.
Although GW might call you Bologna.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:57:01 GMT -5
I asked tgct to look at there metric with regards to api and stats as a combined source of info on tour to alleviate the issue but they said they arent changing and if i dont like it dont play!!!!! I really enjoy the tour and just wanna compete on a fair playing field. Are you okay with getting your swing or others' like yours pulled more frequently as a whole by moving said goalposts and then using stats? In order to grab more players one doesn't "agree" with, you now open the possibility of others who you do agree with getting pulled at a higher frequency.
Using stats to help disqualify is pretty silly, IMO. I get what you are going for, but it is pretty flawed logic. Someone can play safe off of the tee like I do for the most part and get really high FIR all the time. Is that now disqualifying? I purposely play to avoid rough almost all the time AND to play for a full wedge shot and not to leave pitches at all and to minimize flops when possible. I will see a 340, 350, 360 yard par 4 and hit a 2 iron off of the tee without even thinking about it. Only if I think I can get on the green AND have a reasonable chance to make the putt will I try to go driver on a short par 4. This also helps my FIR along with laying back with a wood more often than others. I have a shorter driving average than many, so this can be "seen" in the stats as well.
Hitting too many GIRs or having a too short of a shortest putt stat can help to DQ someone? C'mon, really?
"Well, you didn't have a 25 foot putt all round and you hit 17 of 18 GIRs, so that and combined with how you were in, but "just in" on API.. we now will remove your scores."
That gets blasted by TGCT members and quickly once this starts happening. If you're okay with that then that's cool for you, but I am not and sure think many others wouldn't be either.
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Post by fadgewacker on Mar 9, 2019 12:20:35 GMT -5
Nobody wants to make a swing with a short line illegal.
Almost everybody who’s chipping in only want one thing - a fair swing that has equal dispersion. It’s widely recognised that the short swing is producing much less variance than the full swing and is much easier to accurately loft.
Sadly a fix on the swing will not be incoming in 2019. No chance.
This is nobody’s fault but HBs. TGCT can’t change it... it’s a bit of a mess in that regard.
Not sure TGCT can do anything at all either, bar potentially making it less appealing to push he rules to the limit of acceptability (see other thread).
I agree that combining stats with API wouldn’t work. It could point toward some focused attention on certain individuals, but couldn’t be used to remove folk on a performance by performance basis.
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Post by Cyclerob on Mar 9, 2019 13:16:01 GMT -5
Would have been much less of an issue, since HB mentionned that "the swing is working the way it was intented to work" regarding questions on the short swings, if it didn't return nice "0" when it didn't reach a certain length in the HUD and make you look like a robot! Or that the ball wouldn't move at all if it didn't reach a certain percentage of lenght on the downswing!
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Post by SloanerTW on Mar 9, 2019 16:36:30 GMT -5
Where do I submit a ticket? I played three rounds on Wednesday and I booted up the game today and amm back at round 1 :/
Video If you go to the 44 min mark you can see that all three rounds are there an im at -31. I didn't even notice it was pinset one till the 1th or 17th hole lol
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Post by theduke21 on Mar 9, 2019 18:47:24 GMT -5
Is Bob Loblaw a short swinger?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 20:13:33 GMT -5
Where do I submit a ticket? I played three rounds on Wednesday and I booted up the game today and amm back at round 1 :/
Video If you go to the 44 min mark you can see that all three rounds are there an im at -31. I didn't even notice it was pinset one till the 1th or 17th hole lol
Email commish@tgctours.com. Include a link to that video. I'll bug Doyley and SmilingGoats here as well in hopes that may help.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 23:17:22 GMT -5
Using stats to help disqualify is pretty silly, IMO. I get what you are going for, but it is pretty flawed logic. Someone can play safe off of the tee like I do for the most part and get really high FIR all the time. Is that now disqualifying? I purposely play to avoid rough almost all the time AND to play for a full wedge shot and not to leave pitches at all and to minimize flops when possible. I will see a 340, 350, 360 yard par 4 and hit a 2 iron off of the tee without even thinking about it. Only if I think I can get on the green AND have a reasonable chance to make the putt will I try to go driver on a short par 4. This also helps my FIR along with laying back with a wood more often than others. I have a shorter driving average than many, so this can be "seen" in the stats as well.
Hitting too many GIRs or having a too short of a shortest putt stat can help to DQ someone? C'mon, really? . The only stat that I think should be considered for fair play is not a golfing stat but a controller one: tempo on approach shots. I mentioned this a few times but weirdly it never gained any traction because it's by far the most devastatingly unfair advantage in the game - almost since TGC19 came out there's been a perfect tempo script available and in terms of scoring it's the giant, stomping, pooping elephant in the room. All this talk about less deviation due to a short swing when being a couple of boxes offline still gives you a birdie chance with a great putt, especially if you've nailed the distance which everybody seems to forget is half the equation in getting close, often more than half depending on the green slopes. But a bad tempo on approach is a dropped stroke 99% of the time notwithstanding a miracle chip or flop. The only time I can remember having a round with no bad tempos this season was on TST and I scored a ridiculous -13 for that round. If someone gets 100% perfect tempo on their green approach shots for all 4 rounds, I think some investigation is needed because that's definitely inhuman. I have no idea if the API shows precise tempo data but that would be all you'd need to confirm, as from the video I saw of that perfect tempo script, the arrows end up in the exact same place every single time and no human can ever reproduce results like that (as HB have confirmed tempo is measured in thousandths of a second). Edit: nice illustrative example here, just played a practice round on Sawgrass, played extremely well (including 69% long putts!) and only had 4-5 bad tempos - 2 of those were on approaches, I wonder if you can guess which holes those wonky tempos were on (2 toughest holes no doubt, but I'm 100% certain I would have made par at worst if I had perfect tempo on those approaches):
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Post by GW_Hope on Mar 10, 2019 0:42:42 GMT -5
Ghost feedback would have helped that. Another HB misfire.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 0:54:41 GMT -5
Ghost feedback would have helped that. Another HB misfire. Yep, of all of the shocking decisions HB made with TGC19, not showing others' feedback results is way up there on the list, probably just slightly behind slow downswings producing turbo-boosted power fades lol
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