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Post by cephyn on Dec 31, 2018 9:47:59 GMT -5
Working on my new course this week - been streaming on twitch if anyone is interested in watching - and I woke up this morning hating it, after only about 4 holes in.
There's something wrong with it. It's boring. And that's the worst. My issues are with fairway shape and bunker placement.
I'm constantly thinking "I can't do that, then there will be no landing area, its too tricked up" and then thinking "Well now its just straight, wide and the bunkering isn't in play".
I just watched Canuck's Fabled Haven video and stared at the fairway shapes and bunkers, agog - how? How do I do that instead? How do I make it interesting, challenging and fair?
What's everyone's thought process on making interesting fairways and bunkers? Looking for tips and tricks as I get the bulldozer out to redo my fairways.
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Post by linkslover on Dec 31, 2018 12:34:46 GMT -5
There is no definitive answer. What works on one course may not necessarily work on another.
At Angus Bay International, I have wavy fairways with lots of curves with bunkers and rough jutting into them, or in the case of some bunkers, right in the middle. At Northwood Golf Club TGC my fairways are much straighter and hazards at the side or need to be crossed.
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Post by gamesdecent on Dec 31, 2018 12:40:16 GMT -5
I think the waking up and hating it part is pretty normal. I go through that with every course whether I end up publishing it or deleting it. The trick is to keep tweaking it and to not get attached to anything, whether it took you hours to make or not. Like the one I'm working on now, I spent a good chunk of time on a retaining wall that cuts through the fairway that I thought was unique at first, but the more I looked at it, the less it made sense and I realized that was why it was unique, because it didn't really make sense. I bulldozed it, rebuilt it with what I had in mind initially and it worked a lot better and also kickstarted some inspiration for the rest of the course.
As for shapes, I like looking at courses on Google Earth to get some inspiration there, and it will depend on what type of course you're making. Looks like you were working on a steppe or desert course in your stream, take a look at courses with the same look you're going for. Something like We Ko Pa for instance. What shapes do those courses use? Who designed them? Do they use similar shapes on other courses they've designed? Is this a specific style of bunkering you can carry over into your work?
It's all tinkering. You'll never lay out a great course that everyone falls in love with on your first go around a plot. Just keep working with it, set it to the side if you can't figure it out, and if you come back to it later and it works, great, if not, it may not get finished, and that's fine too.
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 31, 2018 13:11:57 GMT -5
What you need to do above all else, is to have a deep study of golf course architecture and the many different styles of design. You'll soon start to favour certain architects and appreciate what they did with their courses. From that you'll start to find a formula of your own that you can fall back on in game. And when you run out of inspiration you just simply go and look up some of the courses from your preffered architects, especially when it comes to shapes, routing and general layouts, you can just search on Google maps for inspiration. If you haven't already done this - get online and discover what makes you tick when it comes to course design.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 13:29:40 GMT -5
And with all that said I also truly believe that just like the ability to draw and write creatively some people just “have it” and others don’t. I’m sitting here right now and feel completely exhausted of ideas having just enough in the tank to get 18 holes for the World Cup contest. I then read others who have another 3 or 4 courses on the go... I can’t get my head around that.
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mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
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Post by mayday_golf83 on Dec 31, 2018 13:40:09 GMT -5
What you need to do above all else, is to have a deep study of golf course architecture and the many different styles of design. You'll soon start to favour certain architects and appreciate what they did with their courses. From that you'll start to find a formula of your own that you can fall back on in game. And when you run out of inspiration you just simply go and look up some of the courses from your preffered architects, especially when it comes to shapes, routing and general layouts, you can just search on Google maps for inspiration. If you haven't already done this - get online and discover what makes you tick when it comes to course design. I’ll echo what Joe says as my last few courses have been based of the look of real-life courses, or even quasi-RCRs. As for me, reading up more on MacDonald/Raynor/Banks and their use of templates really helped my game when I was in a rut at the end of last year. I don’t take MacRaynor style as full on as some, but there’s so much to be learned about angles and strategy. Haven’t seen the course in question, but I’m guessing you feel a lot of your stuff is pretty straightforward and one-dimensional, and that narrowing fairways and making more of a penal design is the best way of making things more lively. However, if come to find the more options I have off the tee, the happier I am when playing. The holes I enjoy most have options both vertically (Driver, 3W, 2I) and horizontally (picking best side of FW to attack) off tee, and that’s where templates really helped me.
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Post by Crazycanuck1985 on Dec 31, 2018 18:55:12 GMT -5
What you need to do above all else, is to have a deep study of golf course architecture and the many different styles of design. You'll soon start to favour certain architects and appreciate what they did with their courses. From that you'll start to find a formula of your own that you can fall back on in game. And when you run out of inspiration you just simply go and look up some of the courses from your preffered architects, especially when it comes to shapes, routing and general layouts, you can just search on Google maps for inspiration. If you haven't already done this - get online and discover what makes you tick when it comes to course design. Coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between a biarritz and a redan, I will have to respectfully disagree that you need to have a deep knowledge of golf architecture. Surely it helps, but I don't think it's necessary. You do need to know what makes a good golf hole. For me, I guess that comes from playing alot of golf. You also need a bit of creativity. My suggestions for fairways and greens if you don't want them to be "boring" 1) Lots of curves...avoid straight edges as much as possible. 2) Elevation is your friend...gradual, but enough that it makes each shot interesting. 3) Bunkers...avoid the "boring" shapes....go for the ones with more curves and edges....play with the advanced edit and chain some together. You might get something neat. Or just take the circle brush and trace random stuff....something cool might show up from that. Just experiment. 4) Don't build from flat. Autogen those hills in, then add some more before you lay anything down. Then scour your plot and try to visualize some golf holes. Just try it, you may be surprised. Hope these help. Again, I design differently from about 95% of people there where I rely lucking out on a great plot and the holes just kind of "fit". This process can be frustrating though as that perfect plot can be tough. I touch on this a bit in my Course Design 201 video (episode 1).
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Post by rjwils30 on Jan 1, 2019 0:48:20 GMT -5
I hate the phrase “tricked up”. It’s an overly generic term that captures a lot of what’s great in golf architecture. Rules are made to be broken. Don’t restrict yourself. Go crazy, learn from your mistakes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 3:35:38 GMT -5
Oh and it’s a game.... nothing is wrong, it’s just not everyone’s taste.
If it’s not entered into a contest then it isn’t up for actual proper critique, the rest is opinion and that’s all Andre is doing. He is always disclaiming that it is just his opinion.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 1, 2019 5:24:04 GMT -5
What you need to do above all else, is to have a deep study of golf course architecture and the many different styles of design. You'll soon start to favour certain architects and appreciate what they did with their courses. From that you'll start to find a formula of your own that you can fall back on in game. And when you run out of inspiration you just simply go and look up some of the courses from your preffered architects, especially when it comes to shapes, routing and general layouts, you can just search on Google maps for inspiration. If you haven't already done this - get online and discover what makes you tick when it comes to course design. Coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between a biarritz and a redan, I will have to respectfully disagree that you need to have a deep knowledge of golf architecture. Surely it helps, but I don't think it's necessary. You do need to know what makes a good golf hole. For me, I guess that comes from playing alot of golf. You also need a bit of creativity. My suggestions for fairways and greens if you don't want them to be "boring" 1) Lots of curves...avoid straight edges as much as possible. 2) Elevation is your friend...gradual, but enough that it makes each shot interesting. 3) Bunkers...avoid the "boring" shapes....go for the ones with more curves and edges....play with the advanced edit and chain some together. You might get something neat. Or just take the circle brush and trace random stuff....something cool might show up from that. Just experiment. 4) Don't build from flat. Autogen those hills in, then add some more before you lay anything down. Then scour your plot and try to visualize some golf holes. Just try it, you may be surprised. Hope these help. Again, I design differently from about 95% of people there where I rely lucking out on a great plot and the holes just kind of "fit". This process can be frustrating though as that perfect plot can be tough. I touch on this a bit in my Course Design 201 video (episode 1). It isn't at all necessary to have an above average understanding of course architecture to build a golf course, you're right. Anybody can build a course on here just look at hundreds of courses we get per week on the course selection page in game. But isn't it a shame that a huge majority of them are undesirable and probably unplayable. You might not think that you, personally, have a high level understanding of course architecture, but you do. You said it yourself, you play a lot of golf and from that your knowledge has become above average, obviously without you realizing it. An above average level of knowledge is absolutely essential to any designer who takes or wants to take their course design seriously. Without that knowledge you cannot build a good, authentic and realistic golf course. All the great playing courses on here are designed by people who understand most aspects of course design, that's great playing courses, there are still designers out there who make good courses without the understanding and just undertake a purely freestyle approach their designs. The fact that Cephyn got stuck at a point where he was left with a wide, straight course with poor bunker positioning tells me that he had zero direction and no inspiration to fall back on. I know this because I used to do the same all the time back when I was less experienced. In my original post I avoided being subjective, I never even mentioned templates (shocking), and instead encouraged Cephyn to open his mind by delving into some architecture study. This is a much better option than telling him to avoid straight edges, curve your bunkers and build wavy fairways. This only encourages him to box himself in by avoiding other genuine design styles. The points you make are subjective, we all have our preferences and I completely agree with your last point about using autogen hills, especially if you're a less experienced designer. It makes things so much easier. I used them for my first five courses or so. The point about the bunkering is something I definitely disagree with. It isn't really the shape of a bunker that makes it interesting, it is how it sits and is sculpted into the land that gives it its character. Cephyn mentioned that his bunkers were out of play, so what difference would building it to be more curved do? Bunker positioning is an integral part of course architecture and you can learn a lot about this subject by diving into some deep study. That's why learning about architecture can be of more use to Cephyn at this point in time, than just giving out subjective thoughts.
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Post by joegolferg on Jan 1, 2019 5:27:31 GMT -5
I hate the phrase “tricked up”. It’s an overly generic term that captures a lot of what’s great in golf architecture. Rules are made to be broken. Don’t restrict yourself. Go crazy, learn from your mistakes. What else could we call Brookledge CC, then? 😂
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Post by ErixonStone on Jan 1, 2019 17:44:25 GMT -5
I hate the phrase “tricked up”. It’s an overly generic term that captures a lot of what’s great in golf architecture. Rules are made to be broken. Don’t restrict yourself. Go crazy, learn from your mistakes. What else could we call Brookledge CC, then? 😂 Challenging and frustrating. Infuriating, even.
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Post by csugolfer60 on Jan 1, 2019 21:09:57 GMT -5
I hate the phrase “tricked up”. It’s an overly generic term that captures a lot of what’s great in golf architecture. Rules are made to be broken. Don’t restrict yourself. Go crazy, learn from your mistakes. What else could we call Brookledge CC, then? 😂 Child's play compared to whats on tap.
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Post by linkslover on Jan 3, 2019 2:50:15 GMT -5
And with all that said I also truly believe that just like the ability to draw and write creatively some people just “have it” and others don’t. I’m sitting here right now and feel completely exhausted of ideas having just enough in the tank to get 18 holes for the World Cup contest. I then read others who have another 3 or 4 courses on the go... I can’t get my head around that. Very true. I am creative when designing golf courses, I can't draw to save my life... When I set up a new course to work on, I already have dozens of ideas for holes I want to lay down before I've even seen the plot. I then work these designs into the plot. The actual implementation in the designer is where I need further improvement. As for drawing I'm terrible. My 3 year old daughter can almost draw as well as me already which shows how bad I am with a pencil.
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Post by csugolfer60 on Jan 28, 2019 21:22:09 GMT -5
Working on my new course this week - been streaming on twitch if anyone is interested in watching - and I woke up this morning hating it, after only about 4 holes in. There's something wrong with it. It's boring. And that's the worst. My issues are with fairway shape and bunker placement. I'm constantly thinking "I can't do that, then there will be no landing area, its too tricked up" and then thinking "Well now its just straight, wide and the bunkering isn't in play". I just watched Canuck's Fabled Haven video and stared at the fairway shapes and bunkers, agog - how? How do I do that instead? How do I make it interesting, challenging and fair? What's everyone's thought process on making interesting fairways and bunkers? Looking for tips and tricks as I get the bulldozer out to redo my fairways. Tip #1 - eliminate the word “unfair” from your vocabulary. This is a term people use to describe a challlenge on a hole that frustrates them, but they don’t want to take the time to figure out how to get the ball in the hole in as few shots as possible. #2 - Not “if”, but instead use “how much”. Using fairways that slant or curve at a landing zone will challenge a player by asking them to take on as much as they can stomach - meaning there is always a choice to be made based on current wind and conditions. Threading the needle between fairways can become repetitive, and generally leads to the type of boring setup you referenced. #3 - Repeated testing. Hit the shot many times, and if you come to a point where the ball always ends up in the same exact spot, put a bunker there, and if the ball always bounces predictably, give that spot a bit of undulation. The randomness in these two things will instantly make the landing zones more interesting, and as a result will increase the amount of outcomes that can happen.
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