|
Post by cephyn on Dec 10, 2018 10:28:10 GMT -5
One of the critiques of my most recent course focused on some blind shots and/or blocked sightlines, particularly on approach shots. I certainly understand the critique, except I'm not fully clear on WHY it's a critique... One of the benefits of this game is that we have the scout cam, so there's never really any truly blind shots (unless you're playing hard sim mode). You can always get up and over any obstructed view. You can always see the green complex. So WHY is it important to have that sightline from the swing cam? I want to understand. Secondly, there are some very famous IRL blind approach shots out there - the 6th at Pebble Beach comes to mind. It is one of my favorite holes in all of golf, on my favorite course. (So I'm biased, yes) (It also happens to be on a cliff, which I also received some critique about being unrealistic, but that's for another thread) So I just want to understand this critique better. I am certainly not advocating for every approach to be blind, but is it so bad to have a few? Especially since in this game, there are no truly blind shots? Looking forward to hearing thoughts on this matter as I start my next design. If I'm really missing something important, I want to know.
|
|
|
Post by staypuft39 on Dec 10, 2018 11:08:00 GMT -5
Meh. Some people get more bent out of shape over blind shots than they should. A good lesson that nobody here wrote the book on course design and you really shouldn't listen to most of the advice you get.
Personally I try and keep my blind shots to one per course, unless the golfer is out of position (in which case, there are a lot of blind spots). I do believe golfers will remember that more after their round. I do prefer showcasing my greens on approach as I work hard on them and, let's be honest, we can manipulate terrain however we want so I prefer to dazzle rather than give a view of a fairway hill. Sure you can hit the scout cam, but it's hard to argue that having the hole perfectly framed in front of you is slightly nicer. In real life as well, if I kept having to run ahead 50 yards to see where the hell I had to aim, it would get annoying after a while. There's a fine line between charm and bad design.
In the end, design for yourself. It's hard to do in the beginning as you also want to listen to critiques and get better...but if you dig the blind shots and see no reason to stop...then keep going! You'll only get better at executing them.
|
|
|
Post by gamesdecent on Dec 10, 2018 11:25:35 GMT -5
cephyn I'm not even going to address the cliff critique because a. it is possible in real life (Google Cape Kidnappers) and b. this isn't real life, so if you want a flat, tree-lined 18 around a couple lakes then cool, but I'm not getting excited to play it, especially not more than once. As for the blind shots, I love them in real life, and unfortunately they get over-critiqued there as well, but it's also very easy to do them wrong. I don't want to hit a blind shot into a pinched fairway and then have to spend 15 minutes combing through rough to find my ball when you made it impossible for me to see it land. If it happens more than once or twice in a round then it loses its luster and becomes annoying. And I think the critique that's most pertinent to us designing in a video game - if the view would be better off not blinded, then it shouldn't be blinded. If you've spent all that time sculpting a green complex and surrounding it with bunkers, etc. and then block the view of your approach with a hill, you lose that effect. We're lucky to have our course played one time, so you want to use that time to let players get the most out of it in the first go. I haven't played your course specifically so I can't comment on it, but I would say as long as you're within the above guidelines, don't worry about the criticism. None of us (as far as I know) are professional golf course architects in real life. All we have are our own preferences.
|
|
|
Post by cephyn on Dec 10, 2018 11:39:44 GMT -5
cephyn I'm not even going to address the cliff critique because a. it is possible in real life (Google Cape Kidnappers) and b. this isn't real life, so if you want a flat, tree-lined 18 around a couple lakes then cool, but I'm not getting excited to play it, especially not more than once. As for the blind shots, I love them in real life, and unfortunately they get over-critiqued there as well, but it's also very easy to do them wrong. I don't want to hit a blind shot into a pinched fairway and then have to spend 15 minutes combing through rough to find my ball when you made it impossible for me to see it land. If it happens more than once or twice in a round then it loses its luster and becomes annoying. And I think the critique that's most pertinent to us designing in a video game - if the view would be better off not blinded, then it shouldn't be blinded. If you've spent all that time sculpting a green complex and surrounding it with bunkers, etc. and then block the view of your approach with a hill, you lose that effect. We're lucky to have our course played one time, so you want to use that time to let players get the most out of it in the first go. I haven't played your course specifically so I can't comment on it, but I would say as long as you're within the above guidelines, don't worry about the criticism. None of us (as far as I know) are professional golf course architects in real life. All we have are our own preferences. I think the bolded sentences are the point - and its a good one - that I want to sorta dig into....with the ability to scout cam, are we really 'blocking' the view? Or are we simply saying 'look from here instead' - and is that OK too? My bigger questions I guess are, is the view ever really blocked in this game? And what is bothersome about it - I'm not bothered by it, so I'm trying to understand what is bothersome about it to others. I want people to enjoy my courses, so putting in annoying design elements is of course a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by gamesdecent on Dec 10, 2018 12:00:33 GMT -5
cephyn I'm not even going to address the cliff critique because a. it is possible in real life (Google Cape Kidnappers) and b. this isn't real life, so if you want a flat, tree-lined 18 around a couple lakes then cool, but I'm not getting excited to play it, especially not more than once. As for the blind shots, I love them in real life, and unfortunately they get over-critiqued there as well, but it's also very easy to do them wrong. I don't want to hit a blind shot into a pinched fairway and then have to spend 15 minutes combing through rough to find my ball when you made it impossible for me to see it land. If it happens more than once or twice in a round then it loses its luster and becomes annoying. And I think the critique that's most pertinent to us designing in a video game - if the view would be better off not blinded, then it shouldn't be blinded. If you've spent all that time sculpting a green complex and surrounding it with bunkers, etc. and then block the view of your approach with a hill, you lose that effect. We're lucky to have our course played one time, so you want to use that time to let players get the most out of it in the first go. I haven't played your course specifically so I can't comment on it, but I would say as long as you're within the above guidelines, don't worry about the criticism. None of us (as far as I know) are professional golf course architects in real life. All we have are our own preferences. I think the bolded sentences are the point - and its a good one - that I want to sorta dig into....with the ability to scout cam, are we really 'blocking' the view? Or are we simply saying 'look from here instead' - and is that OK too? My bigger questions I guess are, is the view ever really blocked in this game? And what is bothersome about it - I'm not bothered by it, so I'm trying to understand what is bothersome about it to others. I want people to enjoy my courses, so putting in annoying design elements is of course a bad idea. I would say it's not really wrong to block or partially block the view on an approach, but if you're standing over your ball and you see an undulating green with bunkers all around and you have to sit there and think about all of that while you're swinging, that's far more thrilling (in game and in real life) than just seeing a mound of rough in front of you. Even if you can use the scout cam (not everyone does) to quickly view past that hill, I would rather show the hazards and the work that went into the green complex and challenge the player to make the shot head-on rather than block it and feel more like a hit and pray. I guess I would say it's more of a preference than a critique.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 12:21:26 GMT -5
One of the critiques of my most recent course focused on some blind shots and/or blocked sightlines, particularly on approach shots. I certainly understand the critique, except I'm not fully clear on WHY it's a critique... One of the benefits of this game is that we have the scout cam, so there's never really any truly blind shots (unless you're playing hard sim mode). You can always get up and over any obstructed view. You can always see the green complex. So WHY is it important to have that sightline from the swing cam? I want to understand. Secondly, there are some very famous IRL blind approach shots out there - the 6th at Pebble Beach comes to mind. It is one of my favorite holes in all of golf, on my favorite course. (So I'm biased, yes) (It also happens to be on a cliff, which I also received some critique about being unrealistic, but that's for another thread) So I just want to understand this critique better. I am certainly not advocating for every approach to be blind, but is it so bad to have a few? Especially since in this game, there are no truly blind shots? Looking forward to hearing thoughts on this matter as I start my next design. If I'm really missing something important, I want to know. This has been a thing for TST that sometimes shies the choosers away from a course being used. As long as ALL tee boxes are on screen in the overhead cam view then I am fine with the occasional blind tee shots. Just be aware that on occasion we get courses that have blind shots AND the tee boxes you are playing from are off screen, so it is hard to get a point of reference on the overhead to know where you really are so trying to match waypoints like a bunker, tree, carthpath, or the edge of fairway/rough are harder to figure out.
As for the 6th at Pebble, I have been playing golf games for so many years and play Pebble every year multiple times, so I know where to aim on that hole without even looking anymore. But for new creations that people are just playing for the first time (or a small handful of times), TST needs the overhead view to work correctly and have the tee box you are playing from on screen as well as the entire routing of the hole. Not all players choose to use the overhead cam, but it is a good way to estimate on those blind shots.
Hope that helps!
|
|
|
Post by linkslover on Dec 10, 2018 13:35:24 GMT -5
A well designed blind shot is worth having on a course.
One thing I have learned is that the 'rules' for real golf course design work a little different in video golf design. Sight lines and general aesthetics matter a little bit more in video golf, as the player wants wow holes more often as he only spends a couple of minutes playing each hole, sometimes less. In real golf a hole takes anything up to 15 minutes to play depending on difficulty, length and how many other golfers you are playing with (and then you also factor their ability and speed of play). Sight lines and aesthetics then don't matter quite so much because when you have a stunning view, you have considerably longer to take it in. That said, the entire Front and Old nines at Nefyn & District are breathtaking and it's a course I will always remember.
|
|
mayday_golf83
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,279
TGCT Name: Jeremy Mayo
Tour: Elite
|
Post by mayday_golf83 on Dec 10, 2018 16:49:40 GMT -5
Excellent topic cephyn ! FWIW, I've yet to play your course (it's on my list for this week as I've made a few trips down to the La Crosse area and am intrigued to see how you went about trying to pull off the look). So what I say below is more design theory than anything specifically about your course. I want to take a little broader view of this. If you think about it, this isn't much different than most video games, or entertainment for that matter in the terms of suspended disbelief. In other words we're using, in this case TGC '19, to transport ourselves into a virtual golf world where are skills (for most of us) are better than they could ever be in real life and to places that we aren't going to get to without an expensive plane ticket. In that vein, and I'll use myself as the example, when I'm playing, I don't want anything that "jolts" me from my virtual dream, so to speak. That's why, though I know we have tools that aren't available IRL (i.e. scout cam), I've suspended my disbelief and imagine myself playing the course as if it existed in nature. To that end, it stands to reason, when I design, I'm trying to do things that help create the illusion of realism. How does that tie in here? I'm trying to avoid things that make the player go "WTF is this?!" and jolt them from that experience. To that end, an excess of blind shots is one way many golfers could get jolted from their round. That's because we're far less accustomed to seeing blind shots IRL, mainly because it a practice most architects have shied away from for safety reasons. Blind and semi-blind shots have become more the exception than the rule. In the early days, we saw more Dell, Alps and Punchbowl style holes. Heck there were even fairways that intersected each other, but as we became more litigious as a society and the notion that one untimely struck golf ball across an unsuspecting player's noggin could result in the deed of the property changing hands, those types of holes dwindled down to next to none. I'm with what some others have posted here. I may use a tee blind shot occasionally for effect, but it will be sparingly and it will make sense with my terrain. Also, if I'm giving you a blind tee shot, I'm also probably going to make it a very easy fairway to hit and keep the use of cross hazards to an absolute minimum. Nothing more annoying than hitting what I think is a perfectly struck tee shot only to realize I've in fact put myself into a major predicament. I'm also not adverse to using blind or semi-blind shots as a way to affect strategy on a hole, either by rewarding an aggressive play with a better look at the green, or slightly penalizing an out-of-position shot with a more obstructed view. In essence, you could carry this discussion beyond blind tee shots and include hidden hazards (a personal pet peeve) and "puddle greens," which received plenty of discussion during the National Treasure contest. Can I use scout cam or the overhead to get a better view of trouble I cannot see from the default tee setting? Absolutely, but it does jolt me out of my round a little bit. Ditto bumpy greens. Can some of this be overcome by the green grids? Yes, but greens that collect water on the surface with no place to run off, and pins cut on mole-hills and switchbacks detract from my playing experience and jolt me from my round a little bit and thus, take away from my overall enjoyment of the course. Now, no one is saying that how a course HAS to be built. There are those who prefer challenge over realism in video game golf, and that's fine. However there are those who want realism from the courses they design and/or play and, typically, comments like the ones you have seen are derived from those who are thinking about realism first. At the end of the day, like staypuft39 mentioned, if you design the course to your liking, then you can take what those who are critiquing your course are saying with a grain of salt. You can either see their point, agree and apply it to future projects or decide what they are saying does not match your style and continue to build as you see fit.
|
|
|
Post by scampi00 on Dec 10, 2018 17:23:20 GMT -5
Something else to consider, is that not all players here use their scout cams. Without playing your course too it's possible that your blind shots were due to poor sculpting on your part but again I say that without having played it.
Additionally, I would use as few blind shots as possible simply because as the golfer I'd rather look at the hole and the beautiful hazards it presents rather than the side of some hill. That sounds much less enjoyable.
Finally, if most golfers are using the scout cam, then is the blind shot really serving its purpose? Since its not a true deterrent at that point?
There's nothing "wrong" with blind shots necessarily, but for these purposes it just doesn't seem that beneficial.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 17:26:19 GMT -5
Great topic and timed to perfection.
This has been front of mind for me a lot recently as i strive to create holes that dont feel repetitious. This obviously brings in to play a hole that has an elevated green from the fairway, how to do this without crating some aspect of blindness is not possible. Does it make it wrong? NO there are lots of these kinds of holes in real life (unfortunately i eagled one on a par 4 and didnt see it go in) so why make it taboo here other than to remove eye candy. I get it but i dont see it as wrong at all.
|
|
|
Post by beef on Dec 10, 2018 18:15:02 GMT -5
I think anything that offers the player an interesting but fair challenge is to be welcomed. It's how it is implemented with regards to strategy that matters. A blind or partial blind shot with trees or buildings in the distance to provide a point of reference is fine for me. Nothing but sky and a mound of earth with trouble lurking is not.
Most of the courses I play in real life have at least one or two blind tee shots or approaches. They hark back to the days where golf resembled an obstacle course to be overcome.
Perhaps blind shots are just one of the things that don't translate from real life into video games the way we wish.
|
|
|
Post by cephyn on Dec 10, 2018 18:27:18 GMT -5
Something else to consider, is that not all players here use their scout cams. Without playing your course too it's possible that your blind shots were due to poor sculpting on your part but again I say that without having played it. Additionally, I would use as few blind shots as possible simply because as the golfer I'd rather look at the hole and the beautiful hazards it presents rather than the side of some hill. That sounds much less enjoyable. Finally, if most golfers are using the scout cam, then is the blind shot really serving its purpose? Since its not a true deterrent at that point?There's nothing "wrong" with blind shots necessarily, but for these purposes it just doesn't seem that beneficial. I'll be honest, I'm shocked that people don't use the scout cam (except in a true-sim style requirement). But I guess this highlights the realism vs. game debate? If I'm designing a course with the game's features in mind, have I done wrong? As for part 2, I'd say it can serve as a deterrent - in the exact same way showing a green surrounded by bunkers is a deterrent too. Both can give the player a different type of 'worry' while swinging. I'm not sure I understand why one would be a more 'valid' deterrent than the other? I didn't want this discussion to be focused on my course - it just came up as a critique, and I wanted thoughts on the wider topic. I will say that one of the blind approaches on my course not intentional, and I did try to fix it but simply couldn't without completely destroying everything else about the hole. And I tried, to no avail. The second blind approach hole was absolutely on purpose, I wanted the hole to have an 'up-and-over-the-hill' aesthetic.
|
|
|
Post by Violinguy69 on Dec 12, 2018 10:26:10 GMT -5
A lot of this depends on how you view the game itself. Should it be a simulation of a real-life round of golf, a fantasy video game, or something in between? Real-life design principals say that golfers should always be able to see any hazard they need to avoid. Anyone who plays golf regularly knows the frustration of hitting a ball into a hazard you didn't even know was there. I played a course for the first time a while back and hit a lovely 5-iron to a green about 200 yards away. My playing partner (a member) said, "yep, that's wet." I proceeded to say lots of un-Christian things.
I choose to apply real-life design principals to my courses for TGC. My courses will have a blind shot or two, but almost always from the tee, and always with the caveat that a well-struck drive that is straight won't land in trouble. In this game we have the scout cam, and we can always have a look at where our shots will end up, but the TST people (and anyone who doesn't use the scout cam) don't have that luxury.
When I'm judging or critiquing a course, I will use blind shots as a negative if there are more than 2 or 3. I've played courses that have almost 100% blind tee shots, and that's just annoying. No par 3 should ever have a blind tee shot. If the green is raised and you can't see the surface, that doesn't count. Seeing the flag and hazards is what's important. When I play courses, I can usually tell when a blind shot was a design choice and when it was done by accident or without thinking about it. It's a shame that courses are judged too often by beauty and eye candy rather than playability. Because of this, some designers ignore good design principals for the wow factor. The best designers have both.
I haven't played the course in question so I don't know how much of a distraction blind shots are. Like anything else in a good design, moderation is the key. You can't have an island green for every hole. You can't have a 100-foot drop for every tee shot. You can't have giant rocks surrounding every green. And, you can't have a blind shot from every tee or FW. A couple? No problem. Half the holes? Problem.
|
|
|
Post by gamesdecent on Dec 12, 2018 11:21:23 GMT -5
No par 3 should ever have a blind tee shot. Agreed with everything except for this part. Prestwick #5Sweetens Cove #4Friar's Head #10 (down the page some)I think the trick is to make the green large enough (~90 yards deep in these cases) to allow enough room for error, and have it play differently based on the pin positions, so sometimes they are fully blind, sometimes they are partially blind, sometimes they are in full view.
|
|
|
Post by PithyDoctorG on Dec 12, 2018 15:55:56 GMT -5
I think a well-considered blind shot certainly has a place in the game. However, I prefer to see it fit with Alister Mackenzie's principle of "pleasurable excitement." Thus, if a shot is blind, I should get a thrill out of hitting my ball over something imposing. The Alps hole at National Golf Links exemplifies this idea--do you have the balls to hit a mid to long iron over this giant hill with bunkers cut into it? Or do you just want to bunt it down the fairway and wedge onto the green (by the way that green is surrounded by bunkers, none of which can be seen)? The Road hole at St. Andrews is similar--the more you aim your tee shot towards the "great unknown" (the hotel in that case) the easier your next shot is going to be if you pull it off.
I also think that sometimes people take feedback about sightlines and visibility too far and almost every tee shot ends up being from an elevated tee to a fairway set in a valley with bunkers set into the walls and/or folks "jack up" the back walls of their bunkers and create a hole that looks like it's fighting against the land.
|
|