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Post by mcbogga on Sept 11, 2018 17:38:40 GMT -5
Great thread. Personally I agree with those who are talking of creating more open and wider courses that give more options off the tee. This is something I have been doing for a couple of months now, as I've gone full time designing template hole courses. Width off the tee is everything, create angles, present risk and reward and even make the player drive it as close to the green as possible, only to leave them with awkward short pitch shots into the greens. I see a good opportunity in this game to create more drive & pitch holes. With the physics giving the ball a lot more roll out, you can really catch players off guard by giving them an open fairway to drive down, but a tricky short (40-90yd) pitch shot into a green that might run away from them, have a steep bank in front or just be a tight target with little green to land the ball on - targets that would be better suited to lofted full wedge shots in from the 90-120 yard range. Length isn't the answer in my opinion, it's got to be angles and strategy that catches players out. Design with more intelligent idea's. Force players to go one way for a good angle, or the easier for tougher one. Use shot shaping from the tee. The shot shaper in this game is much more sensitive and can easily become a huge mistake off the tee. Force players to shape it around the corner for that shorter approach. Use your default conditions according to your slopes. Sculpt your greens according to your default speed. Where did this come from? Hall of fame post from JoeGolferG! Who would have thought? ;-P
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reebdoog
TGCT Design Competition Directors
Posts: 2,742
TGCT Name: Brian Jeffords
Tour: CC-Pro
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Post by reebdoog on Sept 11, 2018 23:13:07 GMT -5
...he read the rest of the thread first? :-P
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 12, 2018 0:51:13 GMT -5
...he read the rest of the thread first? :-P But said it so much better!
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 12, 2018 2:34:35 GMT -5
...he read the rest of the thread first? :-P But said it so much better! I tried to simplify it as much as possible, and I was spurred on by the fact that there are many great designers/potential designers on here who build excellent courses, but don't always implement great strategy. A famous quote to remember by a famous course architect... "Options off the tee, is key" - Joe G, September 12th 2018.
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Post by Tenahka on Sept 12, 2018 6:15:01 GMT -5
But said it so much better! I tried to simplify it as much as possible, and I was spurred on by the fact that there are many great designers/potential designers on here who build excellent courses, but don't always implement great strategy. A famous quote to remember by a famous course architect... "Options off the tee, is key" - Joe G, Mr Tickets, September 12th 2018. Fixed it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 12:33:56 GMT -5
But said it so much better! I tried to simplify it as much as possible, and I was spurred on by the fact that there are many great designers/potential designers on here who build excellent courses, but don't always implement great strategy. A famous quote to remember by a famous course architect... "Options off the tee, is key" - Joe G, September 12th 2018. I've actually read this post about 10 times trying to figure out exactly where you're going with this...
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 12, 2018 12:56:33 GMT -5
I tried to simplify it as much as possible, and I was spurred on by the fact that there are many great designers/potential designers on here who build excellent courses, but don't always implement great strategy. A famous quote to remember by a famous course architect... "Options off the tee, is key" - Joe G, September 12th 2018. I've actually read this post about 10 times trying to figure out exactly where you're going with this... Not heading in any direction, really. The quote was obviously a joke to make me look as though I'm having an ego attack...
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Post by mcbogga on Sept 12, 2018 13:03:35 GMT -5
I've actually read this post about 10 times trying to figure out exactly where you're going with this... Not heading in any direction, really. The quote was obviously a joke to make me look as though I'm having an ego attack... "as though"...
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 12, 2018 13:24:07 GMT -5
Not heading in any direction, really. The quote was obviously a joke to make me look as though I'm having an ego attack... "as though"... I was driving around Manchester city centre last night, shouting my own name...
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Post by SkinniePost on Sept 12, 2018 14:26:49 GMT -5
I was driving around Manchester city centre last night, shouting my own name... Windsong Sanitarium didn't happen to be on the route, hehe
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 12, 2018 14:36:15 GMT -5
I was driving around Manchester city centre last night, shouting my own name... Windsong Sanitarium didn't happen to be on the route, hehe I had to look that up. 😂
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Post by linkslover on Sept 13, 2018 7:20:04 GMT -5
I was driving around Manchester city centre last night, shouting my own name... People probably thought you had been on an all day bender round the bars.
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Post by rhino4life on Sept 17, 2018 13:36:01 GMT -5
Chances are, if it continues to be an issue in-game, I'll probably incorporate a little of all of these. Another option I haven't seen mentioned is creating a couple bottle holes, where the landing area continues to get more narrow the farther you go. I'm kind of in the Mayday and this camp....or even Reeb. I am not overly concerned with all this stuff of what the player can do, even in this new version of the game. A lot of the things mentioned above are some great ideas that some probably already do now anyway and with a few tweaks can work as a course defense. I have and will continue to use some of these tactics when laying out a course but I hope I put out something that made some sense while not taking away from the look or flow of the course itself. I think out of all that has been mentioned, its playing around with angles of approach, elevations changes, and sightline options that offer the most to the challenge of players than the natural reaction of additional length/tricking up greens...but that's just me. And right now with the roll out issues, the rough/sand being generous, and so on its really tough to design something new in this mess. I assume these will be fixed but you never know with these buffoons. Being a newer designer I don't know if my course will be used, where it will be used, or what level will of tour may use it so I don't really worry any more about a particular faction of player level when putting something together. Hopefully moving forward I can produce a course that could be used at multiple levels and everyone can find something they enjoyed about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 15:44:31 GMT -5
I'm hopeful that the upcoming patch will reduce the rough lie percentages, which alone will significantly mitigate the tempo kaboom boost with the driver (btw you get the same effect with other clubs, 3W can push 300 with a friendly following wind) and designers won't need to be thinking about it for every other tee shot. My FIR in the 2019 game has dropped a lot from TGC2 and is now 78%, but I'm still scoring better than TGC2 because I do not give a damn about landing in the rough and boost the driver at almost every opportunity. The 15-yard increase cited with no wind isn't the whole story, because you get a serious increase with a following wind, that's when it's truly an insane advantage - I've had a few drives very close to 400 yards and tons over 350 in the new game. 330 is basically the new 300, it's the distance you expect assuming no significant headwind and sufficient fairway.
If they had implemented this boost while decreasing the standard carry distances I'd be a big fan, because it's great to be able to manipulate distances (both on long and short side) through tempo, but for some reason I can't understand, they've also beefed up the distances. Which really sucks for so many brilliantly designed TGC2 courses, many of whose risk/reward spots now only have aesthetic value... I know designers will always be creating new courses but these new distances pretty much kill a lot of the clever little challenges that designers worked hard on for past courses.
Also, just want to echo Mr. Golfberg's point about pitching distance approaches, because with 2019 I actively avoid leaving myself in the 'risky' (lol) 40-70 yard range. Pitches were darts central in TGC2 but now they're a liability because a) they roll out more given the same green conditions, b) even shorter pitches are now affected by the wind, and c) a bad downswing tempo on a pitch is now nothing short of catastrophic.
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Post by jacquesy123 on Sept 29, 2018 19:40:14 GMT -5
I'm hopeful that the upcoming patch will reduce the rough lie percentages, which alone will significantly mitigate the tempo kaboom boost with the driver (btw you get the same effect with other clubs, 3W can push 300 with a friendly following wind) and designers won't need to be thinking about it for every other tee shot. My FIR in the 2019 game has dropped a lot from TGC2 and is now 78%, but I'm still scoring better than TGC2 because I do not give a damn about landing in the rough and boost the driver at almost every opportunity. The 15-yard increase cited with no wind isn't the whole story, because you get a serious increase with a following wind, that's when it's truly an insane advantage - I've had a few drives very close to 400 yards and tons over 350 in the new game. 330 is basically the new 300, it's the distance you expect assuming no significant headwind and sufficient fairway. If they had implemented this boost while decreasing the standard carry distances I'd be a big fan, because it's great to be able to manipulate distances (both on long and short side) through tempo, but for some reason I can't understand, they've also beefed up the distances. Which really sucks for so many brilliantly designed TGC2 courses, many of whose risk/reward spots now only have aesthetic value... I know designers will always be creating new courses but these new distances pretty much kill a lot of the clever little challenges that designers worked hard on for past courses. Also, just want to echo Mr. Golfberg's point about pitching distance approaches, because with 2019 I actively avoid leaving myself in the 'risky' (lol) 40-70 yard range. Pitches were darts central in TGC2 but now they're a liability because a) they roll out more given the same green conditions, b) even shorter pitches are now affected by the wind, and c) a bad downswing tempo on a pitch is now nothing short of catastrophic. This in its self can be a defence with the pitches I can see fairways getting tighter and elevation being key but tucked pins from 176 are hard to get close to. I guess it just comes down to what we as designers intend the course to be my last course was designed for CC tour but measures quite long but easy to score on
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